The feet of iron and clay: Dan 2

[mevosper]

On 3/23/2016 at 2:21 PM, Reinitin said:

When Islam started raising its ugly head a lot of new interpretations of daniel came out, then when we started gene manipulation more theory's came out. But Revelation unsealed daniel and revelation shows us Christ reining over all creation. 

 

I was watching a video a few years ago. It happened to be a news report of the controversy between Israel and Palestine. At one point in the video was the image of a missle launcher. At that moment, the term "iron curtain"  was spoken. (google this if you need to). Iron was used in a military reference. From that point, I began looking at the Iron in Daniel 2 as the Roman Empire. Since the head of gold was Nebuchadnezzar/Babylon, it seemed obvious, if it's not mentioned, that: silver arms and chest = Medes/Persians, Bronze = Greece, and Roman empire = Iron.

 

Following this, as Iron flows into the toes with the clay, the next question is: "What is the clay?". Clay is dust of the ground/earth and water (Gen 2:7, 18:27;  Job 10:9, 13:12, 33:6). This metaphor ties in well with the idea of man being a vessel of clay (Jer 18:4, Rom 9:21).

Since Adam was the first man, I follow the clay analogy through the seed of Adam to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Eventually meaning that earth, in one regard, is representative of Israel and the people thereof. Once in the New Testament, after the resurrection of Christ and the destruction of the temple in 70AD, earth is more akin to the flesh of the individual man. This as well ties in nicely with God creating a new heaven and a new earth, and man is a new creation (2 Cor 5:17, Gal 6:14). 

With all that said, I feel like the clay and the iron within the toes are: (1) clay = Jewish nation, and (2) iron = Roman empire. Just as Pharaoh made Jehoiakim king (2 King 23:34) and Nebuchadnezzar made Zedekiah king (2 King 24:17), so also Rome made the Herods kings. Why is this significant? With the case of Christ, the Jewish leadership were not at liberty to kill Christ. They enticed and forced the military state, Rome (Iron), using the persuasion of the people, to crucify Christ. The Romans would not pass judgment based on the Jewish laws. This is seen in Acts a couple of times. 

What does this have to do with the Iron and Clay? The iron is the military might of Rome. The clay is Israel and the religious leaders of the time. At the moment, I'm not sure why or what the 10 toes represent. It could be the 10 horns, but there doesn't seem to be any reference to the 7 heads. Interestingly, a wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin) about the Sanhedrin states that "it is must be possible for a community to vote for both conviction and exoneration". It notes Numbers 14:27 as the basis for the community being a minimum of 10 men. 10 of the 12 sent by Moses complained about the people in the land of Israel, and lacked faith in God. Not sure how much stock I put into that, but it's an interesting theory.  

 

[Reinitin]

12 hours ago, mevosper said:

 

I was watching a video a few years ago. It happened to be a news report of the controversy between Israel and Palestine. At one point in the video was the image of a missle launcher. At that moment, the term "iron curtain"  was spoken. (google this if you need to). Iron was used in a military reference. From that point, I began looking at the Iron in Daniel 2 as the Roman Empire. Since the head of gold was Nebuchadnezzar/Babylon, it seemed obvious, if it's not mentioned, that: silver arms and chest = Medes/Persians, Bronze = Greece, and Roman empire = Iron.

 

Following this, as Iron flows into the toes with the clay, the next question is: "What is the clay?". Clay is dust of the ground/earth and water (Gen 2:7, 18:27;  Job 10:9, 13:12, 33:6). This metaphor ties in well with the idea of man being a vessel of clay (Jer 18:4, Rom 9:21).

Since Adam was the first man, I follow the clay analogy through the seed of Adam to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Eventually meaning that earth, in one regard, is representative of Israel and the people thereof. Once in the New Testament, after the resurrection of Christ and the destruction of the temple in 70AD, earth is more akin to the flesh of the individual man. This as well ties in nicely with God creating a new heaven and a new earth, and man is a new creation (2 Cor 5:17, Gal 6:14). 

With all that said, I feel like the clay and the iron within the toes are: (1) clay = Jewish nation, and (2) iron = Roman empire. Just as Pharaoh made Jehoiakim king (2 King 23:34) and Nebuchadnezzar made Zedekiah king (2 King 24:17), so also Rome made the Herods kings. Why is this significant? With the case of Christ, the Jewish leadership were not at liberty to kill Christ. They enticed and forced the military state, Rome (Iron), using the persuasion of the people, to crucify Christ. The Romans would not pass judgment based on the Jewish laws. This is seen in Acts a couple of times. 

What does this have to do with the Iron and Clay? The iron is the military might of Rome. The clay is Israel and the religious leaders of the time. At the moment, I'm not sure why or what the 10 toes represent. It could be the 10 horns, but there doesn't seem to be any reference to the 7 heads. Interestingly, a wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin) about the Sanhedrin states that "it is must be possible for a community to vote for both conviction and exoneration". It notes Numbers 14:27 as the basis for the community being a minimum of 10 men. 10 of the 12 sent by Moses complained about the people in the land of Israel, and lacked faith in God. Not sure how much stock I put into that, but it's an interesting theory.  

 

Question? so you think the rock crushing the feet in Daniel was fulfilled 70 ad? I have not fully accepted that But I haven't disregarded it either.

[WilliamL]

On 3/29/2016 at 7:42 PM, mevosper said:

It notes Numbers 14:27 as the basis for the community being a minimum of 10 men.  ... Not sure how much stock I put into that, but it's an interesting theory.  

A minyan is an assembly of 10 Jewish male believers. This number actually derives from Abraham's cajoling of God to spare Sodom if so many righteous men should be found in it. The lowest number he got to was, you guessed it, 10:

Gen. 18:32 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten [righteous] should be found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it [Sodom] for the sake of ten.”

So some Jews came to believe that ten of their righteous men assembling in prayer in a city will cause God to spare it from utter destruction.

 

 

[mevosper]

On 3/29/2016 at 10:31 AM, Reinitin said:

Question? so you think the rock crushing the feet in Daniel was fulfilled 70 ad? I have not fully accepted that But I haven't disregarded it either.

Well, the stone I see is Christ (stone cut out without hands, the one the builders rejected) and his eternal kingdom. The stone destroys all the levels of the statue, all the kingdoms, not just the one with Iron and Clay mixed (vs 35). The scene seems to be of a much broader view than just the physical destruction of the temple in 70AD.  It is interesting though, that the stone does seem to "crush" or "land on" the toes (vs 34). What can't be discounted is the timing. The stone's (Christ's) coming is at a time when the world was ruled by the Jewish leadership and the Roman empire (the toes).

Here's a good exercise. Imagine being in the time of Christ. Never before in the history of the world, nor since, has there been an outpouring of supernatural wonders as at the time of Christ. Within a short 3.5 years, Christ made more of an impression (with signs, wonders, healings, teachings, etc) than anyone prior. Just imagine living in that day and seeing the throngs of people clamoring to be healed of sickness, lameness, infirmities, blindness, deafness, mental issues, unable to speak, being taught the ways of God, etc, etc. I know for myself, I've quickly brushed over these in the past. Until one day, I put myself in that era. What must it have been like? Imagine the people that would be lined up just to touch him, and to be healed of a sickness that you had to live with since birth. What an incredible time in human history.

I think more the destruction of the temple in 70AD is eluded to in Christ's Olivet discourse. (this is probably hijacking this thread. apologies)

• In 1 Cor 15:45-47, Paul describes Christ as the last Adam and the second man.
• With this in mind then, Christ talks about the days of Noah before the flood, how they were eating and drinking and giving in marriage. As if life would go on just as it is. (The "days before the flood" is a key statement here). These days he's describing are the days before the destruction caused by Noah's flood (Matt 24:38, 39). Now, picture the time from the birth of Christ (the 2nd man) up until the destruction of the temple in 70AD as the "days that were before the flood".
• As Noah's flood causes the destruction of the earth, so does the flood of Roman soldiers cause the destruction of the temple in 70AD. The destruction of the temple in 70AD to me seems as the end of the symbolic old heaven and the old earth. It's God's exclamation point to show the ending of the former things.