a simple(?) question about sabbath

[Retrobyter]

On March 20, 2016 at 1:11 PM, other one said:

I have looked into the SDA church and had a really good gentleman who was a member of that church work for my dad for many years....    Can't buy into that set if doctrine teachings myself....    says the mark of the beast is the Sunday Laws being enforced.....    just not what the Bible teaches.

Shalom, other one.

Right. We're Messianic Jews and we're the OTHER ONES who believe in the Shabbat. Sunday was the day that the early church chose to meet to AVOID traveling long distances to meet on Shabbat! They collected money and goods for others on a day that they COULD carry such goods without being "illicit work!" Work on Sunday is FINE!

Shabbat is a day of REST. It's HARD to rest on a day when your work is teaching in church school, singing in the choir, serving as a deacon, or taking collections! We should be spending our Saturdays (Shabbatiym) in quiet solitude and meditation with G-D!

HOWEVER, no amount of work (or rest) can add ANYTHING to the finished work of our Master, Yeshua` the Messiah of God to be King of Isra'el and of the world.

[SINNERSAVED]

15 minutes ago, other one said:

You are correct in that we don't follow any of the Mosaic commandments.  We follow the commandments that Jesus gave to us.....   Love God with all you heart and soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself..  the three or four things that carried over about not eating blood or animals that had been strangled and stay away from Idols and immoral sex ...   there are other things we must do such as Baptism but they are few....  

We do the things that Jesus told us, not Moses;  if we have made him our Lord.

If Jesus is not your Lord and you have not been born again then you will be condemned by the law.....   but if you are the law is none affect to you....   period.

okay Otherone I see your view , and I can respect that,

 so here is a question, for I find that you have knowledge to answer with a honest care,?

if we follow what jesus gave us as the two for the ten and the other things you mentioned, then how is it that if there be a change in the commandments given to us by the finger of the same person giving us the teachings of jesus  for both are the same, that we can say that what was given as the school master shows us the sin that we cannot follow, for it be impossible,

 BUt being now born again in the spirit , we see that there is changes in the torah or instruction, and we say its okay, and follow what they say we can today , I am talking about the governing authorities of our society , that makes the rules and laws,

 there has to be even as a born again believer , a line to be drawn for what is correct and what is wrong, so who is now the authority to change and to tell the people we do not have to follow any thing of the past ?

 I hope you can understand my jumbled up question, if not I will try to write it in another way , thank you

blessings

 

[other one]

Because it is a whole new covenant......     but consider the two.....    you love God with all your heat, mind and soul......   you don't do that a little at a time, that's a total sell out to him....           second if you love your neighbor will you kill him....    not just no, but you won't even want to...    Take his things....   no if you love him you won't even want to.....    take his wife.....   no you will not even want to.  And why on Gods green earth would you want to lie and be a false witness about someone to get them in trouble if you love them.

Do you see what he has done.....   with the old law you could hate your brother, want his things including his wife......    Jesus didn't actually do away with the old law, he magnified it into a way of life....

Read Matthew chapter 25 where Jesus divides up the people who have not been killed or raptured and see what he uses to decide who goes to heaven and who to hell....    i'll give you a hint......   it's his second commandment. 

 

[other one]

x

[Esther4:14]

On 3/20/2016 at 6:13 PM, post said:

love fulfills the entire law. 
no argument there, right? 

if we love God, we will not have other gods, we will not speak of Him in vain, and we won't make idols. check. 

if we love our neighbor, we won't do them harm - we won't lie, steal, covet what is theirs, etc. check. 

if we have love, we don't need a law to tell us what is right or wrong to do. we don't need to be told "don't commit adultery" or "usury is a sin" -- because love is faithful to it's lover, and generous towards others. if we love our parents, we will honor and obey them - we don't have to check the law to see if we should or not. 

ok, that 's good, i see . . 

. . but how does love fulfill "honor the sabbath and keep it holy" ? where would we come up with that if we weren't looking for it in a rulebook, but were just walking in love? 
does this point at Christ as the true sabbath, instead of the ritual observance? 

thoughts? thanks. 

I absolutely love this question.  When I practice the Sabbath as a believer in Christ, I follow what Christ says about the Sabbath.  He has lots to say so that I am not dependent on the law in practicing the Sabbath.  

There are two verses in particular that I consider on the Sabbath, which I believe answers your question for how love fulfills "honor the Sabbath and keep it holy." 

There is the powerful story of the crippled woman who is healed on the Sabbath.  He says, " “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water?  Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?” (Luke 13:15-16).  

Just imagine being this woman in the middle of the teachers of the law and Jesus.  What would this have been like for her?  Because, I think there is a completely different healing when she is told that she can be healed on the Sabbath in comparison to being continually told how to think about what a crippled woman can do on the Sabbath.  Now, picture what the Talmud says about the Sabbath and how this would have required this crippled woman to live.  Was the Sabbath a day of neglect for someone who had limited ability to take care of herself?  Was she made to feel guilty is she were to complain of the grief this might have caused her without being rebuked for it because practicing the Sabbath was more like saying Abracadabra to the teachers of the law.  They were working some sort of voodoo magic with the guidelines they added to the commandment regarding the Sabbath.  Just how emotional would it have been to be delivered from infirmity and dependence on a group of people who made their rules a legitimate reason to neglect her suffering.  

Then, there is another time when Jesus heals a man with a shriveled hand on the Sabbath, and teacher tells them, " Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" (Mark 3:4).  

I have the same considerations about this verse too.  What would this be like for a man who with a shriveled hand spent every day as though it were the Sabbath anyway because it is hard to work with a shriveled hand or if you are crippled.  

And, the Sabbath was the day they were freed from this bondage, and this is how the Sabbath should be spent.  It should be a day where the captive is set free (Isaiah 61:1).  This is how to honor the Sabbath and keep it Holy when He has fulfilled the law (Matthew 5:17).  

[post]

i want to thank all of you who have helped me, who have been used by God to help me gain wisdom and understanding about this question of mine. 

now i have another question, that is very much related -- how does love fulfill tithing laws? 
imagine you were saved in some country hostile to the gospel, and didn't have any copy of the scripture, but had heard the word and believed, and received the Holy Ghost -- if all you have is love for God and for your neighbor, but no knowledge of the Torah, would you ever arrive at "10%" ? how would that love in you fulfill the law? 

thanks again. 
and really, it's no offense to me to have gone off topic some. i just wanted to gently push you back towards the OP question, because it's important to me to understand this, because i'm supposed to teach on it, and a have a lot of trepidation about teaching anything remotely false, so i'm looking for wisdom, and the truth. that's all. much love for every reply

[simplejeff]

12 minutes ago, post said:

how does love fulfill tithing laws? 

it doesn't.

12 minutes ago, post said:

imagine you were saved in some country hostile to the gospel,

don't have to imagine that. it's a reality.

12 minutes ago, post said:

would you ever arrive at "10%" ?

no.

12 minutes ago, post said:

how would that love in you fulfill the law? 

if it's Yahweh's Love, true love, then the same as in ACTS and throughout TORAH. 

GIVE to anyone who needs help, IF you have what they need.

SHARE might be a better word than give - understand that everyone of Yahweh's children consider nothing their own- every thing IS HIS. ((To USE correctly, same as TORAH)) ((and ,, like ABBA,  GENEROUSLY - RIDICULOUSLY GENEROUS in the view of the world and their estimation; and in the WORD of SCRIPTURE))

as JESUS SAYS : 'getting' is not the way.  self-sacrifice is.  He repeats "I will show you how", as even HIS OWN disciples did not understand how to live.

14 minutes ago, post said:

it's important to me to understand this, because i'm supposed to teach on it, and a have a lot of trepidation about teaching anything remotely false, so i'm looking for wisdom, and the truth

Maybe, instead of even 'risking' teaching the letter of the law that kills, 

ask everyone what Yahweh has done for them - what good word does everyone have about GOD and what HE HAS DONE for them.   What grace has Yahweh poured out on them TODAY / the last week or year ? 

What healing has Yahweh done ? 

As it is written in HIS WORD - everything needed for life TODAY, and in the life to come, 

has already been generously provided and planned for ((by Yahweh )) in accordance with all of HIS WORD and 

HIS GREAT LOVE HE HAS FOR US.   And - "when you come together, let each one in his turn tell what psalm or hymn or spiritual song is in their heart;  let one at a time speak a few minutes decently and in order"

this is a goal anyway, as it is written in the BIBLE,  GOD'S WORD, 

and so much better than gold, yeah than much fine gold !

[SINNERSAVED]

tithing ?10 % ? good question and a common question I hear,

I want to first say this is what I have learned in my walk and my view of this subject,?

tithing was when the people would give to the church and to the house of prayer, and it was a two fold , event , and then today is not as it was in the past so it is different for different reasons , but it still holds its two fold reason, , for when we as the people of God in the old days they were for a example a farmer or common man, they would plant there crops and then before taking of what God provided and help to grow , they would give the first and the best to the alter, this is called first fruits, to give the best and the first of what you have to God and then you make do with the rest,  as far as percent, that would really vary depending on the offering, when the poor could not have live stock or what ever they would give what they could and or buy a sacrifice for the alter,

 the focus here is on the first fold or understanding that God is God, and he provides all of our needs and we are to give thanks and to give God first what is His , and then us second to provide for the family and for the self  and the needs,

money was given where the people that had would give there portion first a  a tenth or what they could, and then for them self,

but it is also for us to give, to the needy and those that did not have, this was how the churches fellowship so they broke bread everyday , and it was a part of life, and so today it is about giving to the church and hope that they give to the needy and help people,but what I have seen that church money pays for paychecks, trips to the holy lands and other things that are not about the people , so how does this happen, we want to be giving of our selves to help and know we are helping others and not just putting it into a building and funds for mis appropriate means, and that is what I believe thank you God bless

[simplejeff]

....

On March 21, 2016 at 3:10 AM, post said:

yes! so if i did not have the Torah, but i had love for God -- how would my love for God fulfill the purpose of the sabbath laws in the Torah? 

suppose i am converted y a missionary in central China - and i do not have a copy of the Bible, but i heard the gospel and believed. i have never heard of sabbath at all -- but Christ lives in me, and His love compels me - how does that love acting in and through me fulfill the sabbath in particular? 

i think that this question - appearing simple - leads to a deep understanding of the purpose of sabbath, and of true rest. but i am not sure, it is turning over in my head & i want to hear from others what the mind of Christ is on the subject. 

There is indeed a mystery here, for real, and in china, and in europe.

In china, the fastest growing number of believers anywhere on earth.  NOT in buildings.  Well, in homes, caves and forests, by necessity.

Under great persecution.  Great danger of life and limb every day. ((many millions have already been martyred. TRY TELLING THEM THEY MISSED THE RAPTURE !!!))

 

back to you question:  they have the SCRIPTURE.  they honor GOD'S WORD better than anyone in the usa .  They pray for the usa because of all the depravvity here.

their lives are exemplary. they break no law except the law that says not to believe in Yahweh. 

btw:  as per more recent posts:  they share everything with no hesitation, even their enemy if he is thirsty, hungry or needs clothes.

others witnessing their CHANGED LIVES, are converted WITHOUT A WORD.  COMPLETELY CHANGED LIVES.  no more buddha, no more martin luther or methodists or catholicisim ....  no more state approved 'church' /pagan worship.

here's the mystery.

they may or may not rest on the seventh day.

they dwell with Yahweh, so I'm not going to say anything bad about them ((no one better ! they are indeed and in life and in truth THE APPLE OF HIS EYE)).  ((i.e. HE HIMSELF WATCHES OVER THEM))....

 

I ran out of time for now - have to get ready and go to work.....  

 

[post]

12 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

it doesn't.

do you believe that the tithe is a requirement of believers today?  

do you believe that love for God, and love for your neighbor fulfill the law?