pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[SINNERSAVED]

11 hours ago, Ezra said:

SS, I believe I will be reporting you and your attacks, especially since you continue to promote your false doctrines.  

Since you claim that the Tribulation period is for the Church, you must now PROVE IT from Scripture.  Show us exactly from the Bible where it says that the Tribulation period (which is a part of Daniel's 70th week) is for the Church. And if you cannot, then publicly apologize.

I have said again and again that the trials, tribulations, testings, afflictions, and martyrdom of Christians since 30 AD has always been a fact of life.  They are true even as we speak.  But the Tribulation -- a specific period of time in the future, called "the time of Jacob's trouble" -- is for the unbelieving and the ungodly.

If the entire Church (the Body of Christ) was to be beheaded and martyred during the time of the Antichrist, it would certainly be noted somewhere in the New Testament.  There will be Tribulation saints (people saved under the preaching of the two witnesses) but that does not constitute the Church.

 

 

EZRA says,

SS, I believe I will be reporting you and your attacks, especially since you continue to promote your false doctrines.  

Since you claim that the Tribulation period is for the Church, you must now PROVE IT from Scripture.  Show us exactly from the Bible where it says that the Tribulation period (which is a part of Daniel's 70th week) is for the Church. And if you cannot, then publicly apologize.

I have said again and again that the trials, tribulations, testings, afflictions, and martyrdom of Christians since 30 AD has always been a fact of life.  They are true even as we speak.  But the Tribulation -- a specific period of time in the future, called "the time of Jacob's trouble" -- is for the unbelieving and the ungodly.

If the entire Church (the Body of Christ) was to be beheaded and martyred during the time of the Antichrist, it would certainly be noted somewhere in the New Testament.  There will be Tribulation saints (people saved under the preaching of the two witnesses) but that does not constitute the Church.

Sinnersaved says

so you want to report me for ? telling the TRUTH? I am within scripture !!! and it is clear as others have already also noticed, and told you that tribulation, is as common, as the common cold, you do not get a tribulation get out pass, nor do you get a pre tribulation out of here card , you have been corrected, and you accuse me , of false teachings, ? I don't get it Ezra, ? if in matthew Jesus says you will have tribulation and be persecuted and hated for my name sake, ? then I am following the Words of Jesus in my  bible, and am correct,  how do I get reported for the truth , ? this is silly,

if you are claiming to know scripture and avoid the truth ,and what is written ? then I do not see what you are trying to teach here  ?

 in revelation it tells of the tribulation saints .... THE TRIBULATION SAINTS, are beheaded for the word and for there testimony of Jesus and by the Blood of Jesus they are saved by the second death . PERIOD, so why do you continue to say what is not correct in scripture, there are many upon many verse and sayings and warnings that we are to be ready , and to endure all over the bible ,

 the best one is to the seven churches of asia minor, it is said to all of them he that endures until the end shall be saved , do you know what that means ? to endure ? it is telling us  in scripture as the reader let them read and understand as well as the churches that there is going to be tribulations, and they are to wit stand , and hold on, to be strong , for the road ahead is going to be serious, and they need to endure this, going through trials and tribulations ?

I believe you owe a apology, to every one , for this, , the truth must be told , and if it is not it must be rebuked, and brought to the acknowledgment of the person for correction and reproof, this is scriptural

 we serve a Holy and faithful God, and we are to be Holy and Faithful to Him, for we are tried in the fire and purified by trials and tribulation, and made white in the end , if we have the blood of Jesus and the spirit with in,,

 and if you are saying the church does not go through tribulation, or the church is removed as many assumed because after the third chapter of revelation the church is no longer mentioned ,

it is because we as spirit filled believers ,the saints ,are all that is left, the churches are no more, ? God said come out of Her, it means to be called out and separated for His purpose, out of Babylon and the satan infiltraded churches, , the ones not following the word of God, and worships devils and other Gods,

blessings and peace...

 

[Zemke]

Hi SS,

Just a note on your "come out of her my people", I do follow you on the Babylon imagery but as a perspective about the church not being mentioned I'd like to add something.

On the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit was given to empower the church and convict the world of sin. The first day of the church and the church proper. When the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, 2thess 2, the reverse happens and the church proper is no longer. People were saved, although few,  and received the Holy Spirit before Pentecost and people will have oil in there lamps after the Holy Spirit is taken. The ten virgin parable. Those that have oil will have illumination, those who have none will search to and fro for a word from the Lord and will not be able to find it. A cry came out at midnight. The Day of the Lord is darkness and not light. "When I dwell in darkness, the Lord will be a light unto me."

When I read text that concerns that day I find it more and more difficult to be concerned about timing. There is a joy and hope in the resurrection but about that day, the day so much scripture warns us about, there is a heaviness. With so much warning about these things how could we not consider those scriptures pertaining to His believers of all ages and times. I've said it before, we miss aspects of scripture when we concern ourselves over timing and place a timing issue as our interpretive lens. 

[WilliamL]

4 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

If these were fulfilled no later than 70 AD, why then was Israel taken into captivity by Rome.  Was this everlasting righteousness?

There is only one everlasting righteousness: Jesus Christ. And he already came to Daniel's people in the first century AD. Those who accepted him entered into his righteousness, all else did not. That offer has remained eternally open to everyone.

In the End Times, after the Lord returns to establish his earthly kingdom, there will still be sin in the world. The Jews will still only obtain everlasting righteousness through him. So nothing marks the End Times as the fulfillment of this prophecy. It was fulfilled by the first century blood-sacrifice of Jesus for sin.

4 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

But when has All Israel Accepted their Messiah?  For this is what Daniel 9:24 is all about, their acceptance of the Messiah. 

That is what you may want to read into the verse, but nothing in the verse says that at all. You are adding to the Word something that is not there.

 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Zemke said:

When the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, 2thess 2

That assumption is a whole 'nother discussion.

[SINNERSAVED]

7 hours ago, Last Daze said:

You are reading your Bible correctly.  Some people refuse to discern between tribulation and wrath, who causes it and who's affected, because their view on prophecy relies heavily on confusing the two terms.

What you have stated is true and there is no need to apologize for it.  Those who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.  In this world we will have tribulation.  It's a recurring theme for the believer.  Jesus stated that when the abomination of desolation was set up that it would begin a time of tribulation that would be the most intense that has ever been or will be.  It will be a time of "great tribulation".

We know the great tribulation is not God's wrath because:

• the great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is set up.  (Matthew 24:15-21)
• the great tribulation ends when the sixth seal is opened. (Compare Matthew 24:29-30a with Revelation 6:12-17)
• the sixth seal announces the beginning of the time of God's wrath.  (Revelation 6:17)

Consequently, the great tribulation, as defined by scripture, occurs before the time of God's wrath.  It really is that simple.  Some people just don't want  to see it and so they don't.

 

thank you Last Daze, I thought I was reading another Book, lol

[Montana Marv]

William

Daniel's people and Daniel's holy city.  Part or All of them. All those refined like Silver, all accept Jesus Christ as Messiah. Their sin is removed in a single day. Thus the 70th Week is fulfilled as Scripture prophesies.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[SINNERSAVED]

2 hours ago, Zemke said:

Hi SS,

Just a note on your "come out of her my people", I do follow you on the Babylon imagery but as a perspective about the church not being mentioned I'd like to add something.

On the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit was given to empower the church and convict the world of sin. The first day of the church and the church proper. When the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, 2thess 2, the reverse happens and the church proper is no longer. People were saved, although few,  and received the Holy Spirit before Pentecost and people will have oil in there lamps after the Holy Spirit is taken. The ten virgin parable. Those that have oil will have illumination, those who have none will search to and fro for a word from the Lord and will not be able to find it. A cry came out at midnight. The Day of the Lord is darkness and not light. "When I dwell in darkness, the Lord will be a light unto me."

When I read text that concerns that day I find it more and more difficult to be concerned about timing. There is a joy and hope in the resurrection but about that day, the day so much scripture warns us about, there is a heaviness. With so much warning about these things how could we not consider those scriptures pertaining to His believers of all ages and times. I've said it before, we miss aspects of scripture when we concern ourselves over timing and place a timing issue as our interpretive lens. 

thank you  Zemke, for your response,

please break down your question to me, for I am not understanding really what your question is trying to say ,

I think you are trying to see if we are creating a time, of these events , and if they have a lasting effect on the believer ?

 please respond., I would love to try to answer you , but I need to understand your question first,

 thank you and blessings

[Sister]

15 hours ago, Ezra said:

Did you notice "from henceforth"?  That indicates that the ones who died in the Lord prior to the "henceforth" are with HIm (as attested by other Scriptures), and that this is a different group of saints.

Hi Ezra

I noticed that it says "Here is the patience of the saints", when speaking of the Mark of the Beast, and the "henceforth" is from here, these times onwards.  Very clear to understand.

[Paradigm]

There is often a big misunderstanding regarding the subject matter of 7 that states "until he be taken out of the way."

It is important to read this in context. Has the "church" been mentioned from verse 1-7? Is not the subject matter of verses 1-10 a negative entity? The word "let" in verse 7 means to "withhold" or "restrain." 

 

2 Thess 2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, ² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. ³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth (katecho) that he might be revealed in his time.

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The word "withholdeth" is this Greek word.

NT:2722 katecho (kat-ekh'-o); from NT:2596 and NT:2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively):KJV - have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold.
 

It is the very word used in the next verse translated as "letteth."

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (katecho) will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Paul has already explained this to the Thessalonians before. He says "Now you know what is withholding that HE might be revealed. Paul even tells us what the "He" that is withholding is called. It called "The Mystery of Iniquity."

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (katecho) will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The word iniquity above is the Greek word "anomia."

NT:458 anomia (an-om-ee'-ah); from NT:459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:
KJV - iniquity, transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
 

The word "nomia" means Law. In the LXX nomia would correspond to the Hebrew word "Torah." Anomia means violation of the Torah. There is a force that is the Mystery of Torahlessness. This entity restrains and hides the truth. Once the he (The Mystery of Lawlessness) is "taken out of the way" what happens?

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⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The word translated "wicked" above is directly related to the word in the verse above "anomia." 

NT:459 anomos (an'-om-os); from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and NT:3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked: KJV - without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.
 

The church has shown very little power to restrain much. Of the Holy Spirit we read, "He will guide you into all truth and show you things to come."

This force called the "Mystery of Lawlessness" has kept lawlessness a mystery or hidden. People may be participating in lawlessness and even be convinced it is good. Once he (The Mystery of Lawlessness) is taken out of the way. The Wicked (anomos) is revealed. Once he is removed, then lawlessness is seen for what it is. It is no more obscured or hidden.

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⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

⁹ Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

¹⁰ And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

¹¹ And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

¹² That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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The Most High's Torah is truth. That is one of the main ways truth is defined in scripture. 

Psalm 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 speaks of the deceivableness or deception of unrighteousness. It is made to be obscure, a mystery. John says that all unrighteousness is sin.

1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

He also defines sin as being the "transgression of the Torah."

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

In the acrostic Psalm 119, in discussing the laws, commandments, judgements, ect. uses the phrase "way of truth" in that very context. 

Psalm 119:20-34  I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me. 31 I have stuck unto thy testimonies: O Lord, put me not to shame. 32 I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart. 33 Teach me, O Lord, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end. 34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart. 35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.

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2 Peter 2:1-2  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Peter assures us that there will be false teachers among the believers. "Many" will follow what they teach. By them the "way of truth" will be evil spoken of.

We have already seen from Psalm 119:20 that the "way of truth" pertains directly to the Torah. However many will follow the false teachers that Peter mentioned that will speak evil of the "way of truth."

Thy "Mystery of Torahlessness" is one of the forces that deceives to the point that the anomia is a mystery or hidden. Once the "Mystery of Iniquity/Lawlessness is taken away from off one's eyes, the wicked/anomos is seen exactly for what it is. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 3/21/2016 at 4:42 PM, MorningGlory said:

.Post Trib requires the Lord to gather His own and take us to Heaven and then turn around and bring us back again.  Not logical for a God who is te father of logic

I think the typical postie believes that the Lord gathers the dead in Christ to be with Him in the air, the clouds, etc, but not to the heaven of God. After all, Jesus comes down to catch the dead believers to Himself.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then the living Christians will join those who had passed on, and join Jesus, there:

 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

If there is any verse in the Bible that speaks of the rapture, that is it, the catching up IS the rapture.

That part is plain, very plain, so the question is, where do they go from there?

The next thimg Paul talks about is this:

2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief

So we see two groups of people, those who are saying "peace and safety" will find themselves caught off guard, just  as Jesus said it would be after the tribulation, when the Son of Man comes, how it will be like in the Days of Noah, when the unbelievers are caught off guard:

 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

Very similar, two groups of people, the unbelievers surprised, and the believers expectant. 

Posties see the similarity of Matt 24, where it says:

 29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, ANDTHE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Since at the Rapture, the Son of Man comes and catches up believers who had died, followed by living saints, and gathers them together with him in in the air, or from one end of the sky to the other, we see no conflict with the idea that these are the same event, and therefore, not reason to come up with an invisible, secret coming to the Lord before the tribulation, that the Bible never mentions.

We agree with pre-tribbers, that at the second coming, Jesus comes WITH His saints, the Church, so in the absence of any verse that describes a pre-trib rapture, we just accept that the Rapture is one of the things that happens at Jesus' second coming. Nothing complicated or convoluted.

If this is how the scenario plays out, then Jesus and Christians to not go to heaven after the Rapture, they go to the Earth.

So, when you say: "Post Trib requires the Lord to gather His own and take us to Heaven and then turn around and bring us back again" ,

I just have to disagree, because posties do not believe that the Lord takes us to Heaven, your desribed post-trib scenario has nothing to do with post-trib belief. Therefore, it is not illogical as you  suggest, since your illogical scenario is not post-tribism.

More importantly, I suggest not making the mistake of substituting what you think is logical, with what the Bible reveals. Our faulty, human logic, is not what determines what it true. Atheists, Agnostics, Cultists, Muslims, Hindus, etc, all have some form of logic that appeals to them.