pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[Marilyn C]

3 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

. Pre-tribism is essentially a collection of arguments from silence,  speculations, wishful thinking, and redefining of terms, mixed with unfounded inferences and verses out of context, but other than these small issues, it has a lot to recommend it.

 

Hi Omegaman,

Just popped in to this thread & couldn`t let you get away with that assessment of pre-trib. You needed to say, `I believe, or it seems to me` etc etc. As how  it is written it seems you are declaring fact, truth, which I know is not true.  Now any time you want to defend you position in a debate I am willing to debate with you the pre-trib side.

Blessings, Marilyn. 

[Last Daze]

54 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

It sure does say that Cletus. In these discussions, there is disagreement in what that means, what is meant by "the elect"?

Pre-tribbers often assert that there is  Jewish context in that passage, and therefore, the elect is a reference to God's chosen people, the Jews.

To me, this verse makes it clear who goes through the great tribulation:

• Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.  Matthew 24:9

Does that really describe the Jews?

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Omegaman,

Just popped in to this thread & couldn`t let you get away with that assessment of pre-trib. You needed to say, `I believe, or it seems to me` etc etc. As how  it is written it seems you are declaring fact, truth, which I know is not true.  Now any time you want to defend you position in a debate I am willing to debate with you the pre-trib side.

Blessings, Marilyn. 

Fine, I will put it this way Marilyn:

In my observation, born out my repeated observations of hundreds of posts, if not thousands, here at Worthy, that:

Pre-tribism is essentially a collection of arguments from silence,  speculations, wishful thinking, and redefining of terms, mixed with unfounded inferences and verses out of context, but other than these small issues, it has a lot to recommend it. (Feel free readers, to consider my assertions in this PDF file as well)

It is an argument from silence, because no one has produced a verse or passage that declares there will be a Rapture of the Church, which occurs before the Great Tribulation.

It is often stated, among pre-tribbers, that the the Holy Spirit is removed, during the great tribulation, that is an example of speculation.

It is not hard to imagine, why, people would want to avoid the tribulation, so it is hard to imagine that wishful thinking never enters in, while it is doubtful that people hope to go through the tribulation, that is the wishful thinking part of my observation.

I have encountered pre-tribbers, who tell us, that the parousia, the coming of Christ, is Him coming for His church. They neglect to notice, that the thrust of that word in Greek, is to be present, to arrive, to come alongside etc, and that this very word is used in Matt 24, where the contest is post-trib specifically. This is not to say that all pre-tribbers believe the same things, or are as guilty of sloppy exegesis as some are, but it does merit my assertion, that redfinition is part of pre-trib camp methodology.

Sometimes it is not redefinition, is it pre-definition. For example, they will say:

The Rapture it Jesus coming for His church, and the second coming is Jesus coming with His church. That is not eschatology established from scripture, that is an attempt to define a doctrine into existence.

Regarding my accusation of unfounded inference, examples are not even necessary, since without srciptural statments that a pre-trib rapture occurs, the whole theory is only inference. So, the question becomes: Is the inference valid, is there a proof text? No one that I know of, has provided one, let alone a convincing collection of them.

Verses out of context, wow, where to I begin? Common ones are "no man knows the day or the hour" or "Jesus will come like a thief" or "it will be like the days of Noah", where they imply that in the rapture, Jesus will take the Christians away, like Noah was protected, I could go on, but you get the point.

So yes, it is my studied opinion and observation, that pre-trib rapturism, is essentially a collection of arguments from silence,  speculations, wishful thinking, and redefining of terms, mixed with unfounded inferences and verses out of context, but other than these small issues, the theory has a lot to recommend it.

Regarding your offer (again) to debate Marilyn, I decline. I have spent plenty of time here, explaining my views, and you have as well. It does not appeal to me, to so set aside special time and attention, when I have other duties here to attend to, I do not think I could debate with timely and reasonable responses in a special debate, so I prefer to take the occasional opportunity to comment when I choose to. In fact, I am only in the thread now, because someone requested me to make an appearance. If I do choose to debate some time, it will likely be on a topic of greater importance.

Another reason I do not want to debate you, is that I find your approach to scripture, to be odd, frankly, and I really do not want to give it any additional 'air time'. I have expressed this to you before, but for the sake of other readers, I will explain that a little.

You seem to have an approach which has as it's premise, discerning the purpose of God, to understand what scripture means. I won't speculate on God's purpose, when He states his purpose, that is one thing, but if the purpose can be deduced, it is not the leader to understanding, it is an understanding. I take scripture for what it says, and try not to speculate the why part of it.

Allow me to explain by an example in another topic, just for illustration:

A person says, in order to understand, whether or not the gift of tongues is for today, we need to understand God's purpose. The person will then go on to say, that God's purpose, was so that people could hear the Gospel in their own language. Since we have missionaries and Bibles in many languages, tongues are obsolete.

Whether or not genuine tongues exist today, you do not determine that by presuming to know God's purpose is limited to non Hebrew speakers hearing the gospel. The Bible either says they have ceased, or it doesn't. If it does not, then I will not assume that they have ceased, I am simple that way.

To readers of this thread, tongues is not the topic, so do not go there. This was just an illustration to demonstrate what I see as a shortcoming in methodology of Bible interpretation.

So, to recap Marilyn, I have no interest in a personal debate. Feel free to challenge any point I attempt to make in a thread, with you own stance if you like.

[ENOCH2010]

5 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

To me, this verse makes it clear who goes through the great tribulation:

• Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.  Matthew 24:9

Does that really describe the Jews?

Nope I would say that sounds like a called out group that is killed because they are Christians, lets call them the church.

[Omegaman 3.0]

11 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

To me, this verse makes it clear who goes through the great tribulation:

• Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.  Matthew 24:9

Does that really describe the Jews?

Sounds a bit like Rev 20:4

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

I have to give the participants in this thread some credit. Controversial, though it is, people here have been pretty civil, compared with some threads on this in the past, and this after 25 pages of posts (as my browser displays it anyway)

Good job!

[Marilyn C]

Hi Omagaman,

Thank you for you detailed response. Even though you may not desire to spend time looking at God`s purposes written in His word, others may. Your response gives me quite a lot of information as to how others think, so I can hopefully point them in the right direction.

Your in Christ, Marilyn.

[Montana Marv]

Omgeaman

If you were to die today or next week.  Where would your soul go.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Ezra]

3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Also, I never noticed before, but it says the will gather HIS elect . . .

that sounds also, like Christians, not the chosen people, Israel, just an observation

But here's the distinction.  When Christ comes for His saints at the Rapture, He comes in person, and takes His saints back to Heaven in person, after they meet Him in the air.

But when Christ gathers "his elect" (Matthew 24) He first comes to earth with His saints and angels (Rev 1:7), and then sends His angels to gather the elect.  Big difference, since these elect ones are the believing Jewish remnant. [BTW "elect" applies to both individual and groups. Context is key]

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Mt 24:30,31).

[n2thelight]

3 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Omgeaman

If you were to die today or next week.  Where would your soul go.

In Christ

Montana Marv

All souls return to God