pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[Last Daze]

30 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

That is one of the strongest reasons of support for pre-trib catching up.... anything else mid or post we would know more the day and hour  

You embellish "know the day or the hour" into "know more the day or the hour" and call that one of the strongest reasons of support for the pretrib fallacy?

2 Thessalonians 2:3 clearly states that our gathering together to Him happens after something.  Something else comes first.

• Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

That one verse alone dispels the imminence fallacy.  The rapture must come after the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin.  The day or hour would still be unknown.  No problem at all.

If anyone is honestly interested in understanding the timing of the rapture then start with the explicitly stated timing given by Jesus (the last day) and Paul (the last trumpet).  There's no merit in making stuff up that misleads people.

[WilliamL]

On 4/2/2016 at 6:28 AM, enoob57 said:

On 4/1/2016 at 9:45 PM, Montana Marv said:

Yet, we all can pinpoint the 2nd Coming.  Not so with the Rapture

That is one of the strongest reasons of support for pre-trib catching up.... anything else mid or post we would know more the day and hour  

Last Daze is correct. In addition, this pre-trib claim that the Second Coming and the Rapture are two exclusive/different things is just one in a rather long list of pre-trib's non-biblical teachings. The Rapture takes place at the Second Coming, as the same passage from 2 Thes 2 makes clear:

2 Thes. 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND our gathering together to Him...

"Our" -- the Church's -- gathering to Jesus "in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" = the Rapture at the Lord's Coming.

 

[Montana Marv]

27 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Last Daze is correct. In addition, this pre-trib claim that the Second Coming and the Rapture are two exclusive/different things is just one in a rather long list of pre-trib's non-biblical teachings. The Rapture takes place at the Second Coming, as the same passage from 2 Thes 2 makes clear:

2 Thes. 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND our gathering together to Him...

"Our" -- the Church's -- gathering to Jesus "in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" = the Rapture at the Lord's Coming.

 

William

May I consider you as God the Father

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[((Michael))]

I believe the rapture is something new as far as doctrines. I've read that the rapture doctrine was introduced into mainstream by a Thomas Darby in 1832. I believe the Jews who grew up reading the Tanakh understood there was a resurrection of the dead on the last day, and that God would bring His Kingdom here on earth in Jerusalem ( hope I'm saying this correct ). Look at the Acts 1:6-7

Acts 1:6-7 ⁶ So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” ⁷ He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority.

Christ never rebuked them for implying what they had understood reading all the prophets, that a kingdom would be brought to earth. The rapture I see in scripture is a rapture of the wicked. Take a look at the parable of the wheat and the tares

Matthew 13:40-42 ⁴⁰ So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. ⁴¹ The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, ⁴² and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Also, you have scriptures that all point this "Last Day".....scriptures that suggest that Eternal Life is given "Last Day......Ressurrection happens "Last Day"...........Judgement is given "Last Day", look at the following passages about the last day:

John 11:24(NASB)²⁴ Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

John 12:48(NASB)⁴⁸ He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

John 6:40(NASB)⁴⁰ For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

 

I can't say I know for 100% certain whether there is no rapture or not. But I will say this, I think it's dangerous for any church or member of the body of Christ to think they will not have to endure the worst of times in tribulation. Matthew 24:22 (NKJV)²² And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

 

[7Dove77]

WatchManMichael,

Very good post...

 

Blessings,With Gods Grace 7Dove77

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 3/21/2016 at 4:37 PM, MorningGlory said:

And yet you don't KNOW whether PreTrib is a fallacy or not.  You are only stating an opinion.

I have a question: How do you know, what a person knows or not. Can a person that an opinion, and not know it to be true? Could someone as legitimately say to you:

"And yet you don't KNOW whether the Trinity is a fallacy or not.  You are only stating an opinion." ?

[Ezra]

On 03/04/2016 at 7:42 AM, WilliamL said:

The Rapture takes place at the Second Coming, as the same passage from 2 Thes 2 makes clear:

2 Thes. 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND our gathering together to Him...

This passage (2 Thess 2:1-12) is frequently misunderstood because of the way Paul begins.  What Paul is telling the Thessalonians (and all of us today) is DO NOT CONNECT THE DAY OF THE LORD TO THE RAPTURE.  Why because "the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to unto Him" has nothing to do with the time of God's wrath (the Day of the LORD), which is preceded by the Man of Sin.  

The Day of the LORD culminates in the Second Coming of Christ WITH His saints to pour out Him wrath on His enemies. But the saints cannot come WITH Him, unless they have already been with Him in Heaven (Rev 19).  So this is how the Second Coming is presented (Jude 14,15): And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

[SINNERSAVED]

14 minutes ago, Ezra said:

This passage (2 Thess 2:1-12) is frequently misunderstood because of the way Paul begins.  What Paul is telling the Thessalonians (and all of us today) is DO NOT CONNECT THE DAY OF THE LORD TO THE RAPTURE.  Why because "the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to unto Him" has nothing to do with the time of God's wrath (the Day of the LORD), which is preceded by the Man of Sin.  

The Day of the LORD culminates in the Second Coming of Christ WITH His saints to pour out Him wrath on His enemies. But the saints cannot come WITH Him, unless they have already been with Him in Heaven (Rev 19).  So this is how the Second Coming is presented (Jude 14,15): And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

I am sorry but I have to disagree with you , and you have separated the scriptures again,  the gathering is at the second coming, it states it in scripture and William showed it to us, there is nothing to mis understand, unless you have another motive, to accomplish, for it is saying what it does say , how do you separate this to justify your idea, and opinion,. for you do not know the scripture ,if you refuse to believe what it plainly says ? so why don't you break it down so we can all know what you are saying, and how you have got the right answer and everyone else is wrong ? please use scripture  to prove what you are saying, ?

[Montana Marv]

36 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I have a question: How do you know, what a person knows or not. Can a person that an opinion, and not know it to be true? Could someone as legitimately say to you:

"And yet you don't KNOW whether the Trinity is a fallacy or not.  You are only stating an opinion." ?

Omega

For we do know that the Trinity is true.  Matt 28:19 - Therefore go and make disciples of all nation, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Ezra]

44 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

I am sorry but I have to disagree with you , and you have separated the scriptures again,  the gathering is at the second coming, it states it in scripture and William showed it to us, there is nothing to mis understand, unless you have another motive, to accomplish, for it is saying what it does say , how do you separate this to justify your idea, and opinion,. for you do not know the scripture ,if you refuse to believe what it plainly says ? so why don't you break it down so we can all know what you are saying, and how you have got the right answer and everyone else is wrong ? please use scripture  to prove what you are saying, ?

Let's turn this around.  You show us from Scripture what is incorrect, since you talk about "motive", "opinion", "you do not know the scripture", and other such accusative language (which shows your motive).  Let's see what you really know about this subject, and let's see you "prove" something.