pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[HAZARD]

The Bible teaches that all the righteous dead will be resurrected before the Millennium and the wicked dead after that period (Rev. 20:4-15). Therefore, how could the wicked be resurrected and given a second chance during the Millennium, if they are not risen until after the Millennium? In no place does the Bible teach that men have a second chance. On the contrary it says, "It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." (Heb. 9:27). The Bible does not say, "after this second chance, and then annihilation, if they fail again." The Bible does not teach annihilation for any man. Men, during their lifetime have hundreds of chances to get right with God, and if they fail to do so they will be cut off and "that without remedy" (Prov. 29:11).

So it is clear that the subjects of the Millennial Kingdom will not be the wicked dead who will be raised tolife again after the Millennium, but men of the nations who will be on the Earth at the coming fo Christ with the saints to set up the Kingdom (Isa. 2:1-4; 11:11; 66:17-21; Zech. 14:16).

 

[HAZARD]

17 minutes ago, other one said:

But Nimrod was trying to do something at the tower that God said he could do if he left him alone to do it.......    and unless they were trying to do something other than build a tall tower, that could not be the case (unless you are a flat earth believer).

You are using directions but I don't see a reference point to start from.     Yes Lucifer  ascended into Heaven from the sides of the north.......   sides of what and north of what.    You are just assuming that it is north from earth......   and where would north from earth be...   one doesn't use that terminology once you leave the planet unless you are a flat earther.

Forget the great apostate Nimrod! he has nothing what so ever to do with the Rapture? And, I'm no flat earth goon either.

I gave dozens of Scriptures, if not more outlining a pre-trib rapture, you have given nothing in rebuttle except your own pet theories and ideas. Where is the northern part of the universe, you don't even know this? Get yourself an atlas of the universe and you will see maps of the NORTHERN SKY, Capella and Wega, Cygnus, The Aquare od Pegasus, the Ring Nebula M 57, Veil Nebula, Crab Nebula, and many more, all which are in what  astronomer's call the northern part of the universe. Then, they have mapped all the Northern Sky Galaxies, too many to even try and mention here. The we move on to the Southern Sky, the Southern Cross, Centaraurus, Argo Navis, the Scorpion Gemma Virginis, then the clusters and Nebulae, Lagoon Nebula, Omega Nebula, the galaxies again too many to mention here.

If you prefer to be raptured away before the Millennium and miss out on being a part of establishing God's kingdom on earth then so be it, I don't mind, but don't hold your breath!

[HAZARD]

11 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Interesting can you explain then why we still see the body of the church after chapter 4?

And the dead in christ raised in chapter 11? 

 

I'm not repeating myself over and over and over. Read all my posts on this subject, then make up your own mind. Do you want to go to Heaven with Christ before the Tribulation, or would you prefer to stay here during the tribulation, hope you survive, and if you do maybe, although nothing is said in Scripture about this, be taken away after the tribulation and miss out on being here with Christ as He ushers in His Kingdom.

When Christ come back after the tribulation and begins His Millennial rule, He wont be going back alone or with anyone else!

[Serving]

9 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Feel free to do as you see fit. I Prefer to believe what Jesus Himself said about Himself. He became man, divested Himself of His spirit body and took on flesh and bone, He died for us, His spirit went to hell, His flesh and bone body went to the grave and remained there for three days and nights. He was raised from the dead, He went to Heaven and back, He suddenly appeared to doubting Thomas and the disciples who were in a closed room.

They were TERRIFIED  and because they thought they had seen a SPIRIT.

Jesus asked them why they were affrighted"

Luke 24:37, But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a SPIRIT.
   

V. 38, And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

AND JESUS CONTINUED IN VERSE 39, SAYING;
   

V. 39, Behold my hands and my feet, THAT IT IS I MYSELF :  handle me, and see; FOR A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONE AS YE SEE ME HAVE.

That's good enough for me, Jesus Christ is now flesh and bone.

We can also read in ZECHARIAH 13:6. THAT JESUS WILL CARRY THE SCARES HE RECIEVED WHILE HERE ON EARTH FOR EVER;

"And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

I think Jesus would know whether He was now flesh and bone, or still spirit better than you or I? He says so Himself in the Scriptures, so its a wast of time discussing this any further, in my opinion! I believe what He says about Himself, not what men think about Him! The difference between spirit and flesh and bone is substance.

A God who could not make Himself clear, or had to be interpreted and be declared a mystery is no God at all. Let us believe, like sensible men, that God can make Himself understood. He will hold men responsible for what He says, not for what men interpret His words to say. He has a right to judge men in the end if they constantly make Him false in all that He says, if they listen to satanic theories. "He that rejecteth me, and recieveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48; Rev. 20:11-15). This should be enough for men to quit the foolishness of changing God's Word to mean anything they want it to mean? It is the height of ignorance for anyone to claim to know God better than He has revealed Himself to be.

Jesus says He now has a flesh and bone body, so lets let this be the truth.

 

 

Okay, I see you aren't looking at this from a critical perspective .. look, these people were terrified at seeing Jesus in His FLESH .. TERRIFIED of Him in the flesh even !!!! Can't you see what would have happened if He showed Himself as Spirit? They would have fled like mad men IF Jesus didn't purposely manifest in the flesh .. and EVEN though He did this, EVEN though He did, He STILL had too say, whoa, hold up, look, I'm flesh, calm down, calm down, look HANDLE ME, does a ghost have flesh and bone etc .. this is just like a parent calming terrified children by providing them with something they can COPE WITH .. clearly they couldn't have coped with His SPIRIT form .. don't forget this, Pentecost had not yet happened either, these Apostles had not yet their UNDERSTANDING enlightened, so HOW could they have coped with seeing His true SPIRIT form when, once more, even their seeing Jesus in the flesh had them "laying eggs" UNTIL He made them HANDLE HIM.

Look, lets make this even simpler, you believe in God right, then WHY don't you believe what is written :

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I say "God is a Spirit"

You say "no", that I am adding to scripture

Scripture say's, "God is a Spirit"

You say, "no", He is "glorified flesh and bone"

Scripture say's spirit is mightier than flesh

You imply that by God incorporating "glorified flesh and bone" He now somehow becomes superior, yet flesh is LOWER than Spirit !!!

How can adding something "lesser" (flesh and bone) into something "greater" (Spirit) make the end result superior to the unadulterated Spirit which has not been "mixed" .. other words, why in hell would God diminish His divinity by making Himself of a lesser "material" which is what your doctrine in fact does?? Again, just adding "glorified" in front of "flesh and bone" means absolutely nothing Hazard .. NOTHING.

You need to apply some critical thinking because the problem is not in the fact that "God is a Spirit", but in your ability to critically relate this truth to WHAT is happening in Luke and WHY Jesus manifested Himself in flesh form for the Apostles instead of His TRUE FORM .. again, and it is simple .. because the Apostles were TERRIFIED .. now build upon that with "real world" applications and not "class room" theorizing's that only work in "classrooms".

 

[Serving]

Since Hazard has not answered this, then .. 

TO ALL PRE-TRIBULATION ADHERENTS, please TRY and GET AROUND this :

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now THINK about what you say before you respond mechanically .. look at the text critically and you will see that the above saints can ONLY BE the PRE-TRIBULATION SAINTS themselves who GO THROUGH Tribulation and come out the other side and are NOT "raptured" away pre-trib at all, but are instead risen on the day of the Lord at the 2nd coming itself.

Hint, just ONE example for now, read rev 13 AGAIN and THINK ABOUT IT in relation to the above ..

Ask yourself, WHO are those believers that are on earth BEFORE this mark of the beast becomes law .. aren't they SAINTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ask yourself, BEFORE the mark of the beast becomes law, the false prophet is speaking "marvellous words" (Daniel) to "wear out" those above SAINTS to get them on his side BEFORE he physically comes after them with the mark of the beast, aren't they then classified as PRE-TRIBULATION SAINTS ??

Ask yourself, SINCE they are PRE-TRIBULATION SAINTS, and were here before the mark became law, and seeing the mark of the beast IS THE REASON for the tribulation of the saints .. the CAUSE of the tribulation of the saints .. and those above SAINTS say NO to that mark, who were HERE before it became law, and were HERE as it BECAME LAW, and are KILLED for REFUSING it after it became law, then WHO is being "raptured" BEFORE this since the definition of the group being killed for non compliance are called BY GOD Himself as the SAINTS beheaded for the WITNESS OF CHRIST ?????

But aren't SAINTS by definition, GOD'S PEOPLE ??? HOW can one group be taken up and another group left behind when the definition of SAINT is one who is ACCEPTED BY THE LORD ????

Then since they ARE accepted, since they ARE saints .. then HOW on earth can they be left behind whilst some other NON DECLARED and NON DEFINED group "somewhere" in the scriptures themselves are apparently being taken up EN MASS ???????????

So that then means that those saints above CAN'T be SAINTS after all IF you believe pre-trib rapture because the "pre-trib rapture" supposedly contains SAINTS .. this is a classic case of CIRCULAR REASONING using a theory to support a theory but is bereft of FACTS !!!!!!! 

SEE ????

You are being lied to.

WHAT, are they atheists being "raptured" then, because God says His SAINTS are being killed, so WHO then is being "raptured" ?? .. what, God is "rapturing" men from Mars perhaps ?? THINK people and wake up to the error,

Then ask yourself .. "am I thinking or am I just applying pre programmed and learned responses unbeknown and unsupported" .. then tell yourselves, "I am not a robot .. I am not a robot ... I am not a robot .. I am not a robot   

[n2thelight]

Those who die in Christ come with Him at His return(His one and only)

 

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."   If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer]. It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7. Regardless what chapter nine of Ecclesiastes says concerning the flesh body; when this flesh body is dead, the soul is gone from it, and the flesh is left to rot. It is difficult to see how they made a "rapture theory" out of this, when the subject is, "where are the dead?" So we see that when one dies, his soul goes immediately to be with our Heavenly Father. If you believe this, you are not heathen. I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep." This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written. "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground. Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies. Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian. To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed". Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body. Why? Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him. I Corinthians 15:53, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." "Mortal" means "liable to die" in the Greek. At the last trump the Christians who stand against Satan, and his system, will have their immortality, however, those who fall for Antichrist and his system, will have to wait until after the 1000 years. "Corruptible into incorruption" is refering to the flesh body changing into the body such as the angels have, a spiritual body. Whereas the eternal condition of the soul is only extended to those who have not yielded to the Antichrist, For they only are the victors at the seventh trump. You put on immortality through Christ who set the way. I Corinthians 15:54, "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." Going back to I Thessalonians 4:15, we know when this will come to pass. It will be "at the last trump", when the alive in Christ are "changed", not flying away.   http://www.theseason.org/1thess/1thess4.htm

[n2thelight]

On 4/25/2016 at 9:01 PM, HAZARD said:

No, The saints in heaven now all come to collect their bodies with Jesus when He returns to rapture those in Him before the tribulation. "The dead will rise first, that is the dead bodies will be raised, the saints who return with Jesus will collect their bodies, and we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven He took with Him those in Him, like David, Moses Abraham, the apostles and all His followers and disciple's who died before He paid for our sins and were taken to paradise, Abrahams bosom, because they could not enter Heaven till Jesus died and paid our death penalty.  Eph. 4:8, Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity2 captive, and gave gifts unto men.

 Since His death and resurrection, all those who die in Him, as those He died and paid the price for, go to Heaven, leaving their bodies behind in the grave. When Jesus returns in the air to rapture, to take His saints off the earth before the tribulation, to save them going through it, these saints bodies will resurrected and reunited with them as glorious flesh and bone bodies as Jesus has.

Those in heaven don't need to come collect a body,they already have one

Let's take an aborted baby,what body do they come and get?

Paul told us we have two bodies,why again is this so hard to understand?

[other one]

5 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Forget the great apostate Nimrod! he has nothing what so ever to do with the Rapture? And, I'm no flat earth goon either.

I gave dozens of Scriptures, if not more outlining a pre-trib rapture, you have given nothing in rebuttle except your own pet theories and ideas. Where is the northern part of the universe, you don't even know this? Get yourself an atlas of the universe and you will see maps of the NORTHERN SKY, Capella and Wega, Cygnus, The Aquare od Pegasus, the Ring Nebula M 57, Veil Nebula, Crab Nebula, and many more, all which are in what  astronomer's call the northern part of the universe. Then, they have mapped all the Northern Sky Galaxies, too many to even try and mention here. The we move on to the Southern Sky, the Southern Cross, Centaraurus, Argo Navis, the Scorpion Gemma Virginis, then the clusters and Nebulae, Lagoon Nebula, Omega Nebula, the galaxies again too many to mention here.

If you prefer to be raptured away before the Millennium and miss out on being a part of establishing God's kingdom on earth then so be it, I don't mind, but don't hold your breath!

what in the world does where heaven is located have to do with the rapture.

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, Serving said:

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Serving

When does this verse come into play.  Only when the beast is revealed and the mark of the beast is being instituted.  Which is still future.  Cannot there be two groups who rule with Christ during the 1000 years.  The Church/Body of Christ and those beheaded during the 70th Week.

So what you post does not fly.  How you interpret Scripture does not fly.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

8 hours ago, Cletus said:

Thats not biblical.  First the dead then the living.  Thats the word of God.  Anything else is adding to Gods word.  Oh and lets not forget the part about a twinkling of an eye.  Not a couple or even three twinklings. 

It is my Hope that people would read the bible for what it says and not try to pick out verses to back up a teaching. 

Christ was the First Fruit into the First Ressurection, Then....  So how many entries are there???

In Christ

Montana Marv