Rethinking the Rapture

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 minute ago, missmuffet said:

You believe what you believe. You see the Post tribulation rapture theory. I am not going to tell you that you are wrong. I did tell you that "time will tell". That is short and to the point. I have never posted false doctrine Omega and you know that. I have only posted the true literal Word of God and how I see it. When the rapture is going to happen is not something we have to divide over.

Here is the thing though missmuffet, well, several maybe.

One, rapture doctrine is not something I have ever chosen to divide over, not with you or anyone, that just goes without saying. Eschatology is not a divisive issue, but there are some divisive people. I just think some people lack the maturity to know the difference, and if they find themselves getting hot under the collar over it, that is probably a good sign, that they should chose to leave the topic, until they have grown some.

"I have never posted false doctrine Omega and you know that. I have only posted the true literal Word of God and how I see it."

Well, that is an interesting thought. If person A and person B have two doctrines. Either A is wrong, of B is wrong, or they are both wrong. You are claiming that yu have never posted false doctrine, As I see that, either your are wrong in that assesment, or you are saying that I am wrong in mine. I am not sure why you assume that you have never posted false doctrine on this topic, when you do not even seem able to defend what you believe from the Bible. As the the second, compound sentence there:

"I have only posted the true literal Word of God and how I see it."

That is difficult to address. The true, literal Word of God and how a person sees that, can be two different things, In fact, I have never even met a person who seems to be able to say that they believe the true, literal word of God, in a consistent manner. Pre-trib rapturists sometime claim to though, I have not seen that demonstrated yet.

I hope that you are just misspeaking a little bit, poorly expressing your self, but I think I will bow out of the conversation, since I think that poor JohdD hoped that it would go into some other direction, like comparing the Rapture with other removals.

 

[Revelation Man]

On 6/26/2016 at 8:20 PM, JohnD said:

Okay.

The point I make is the rapture is not what people think, hope, believe it is.

Matthew 24 speaks of the gathering of his elect from the four winds of the earth. 2 Thessalonians 2 begins on the topic of the gathering that some feared might have already taken place... if that was the second coming / end of the earth how could any sane person believe they missed this? Revelation 3:10 speaks of delivering one kind of the seven kinds of churches from the time of trial / testing that will befall the whole earth. There are other examples, but I believe the point I am making is clear.

The rapture is not to spare Christians tribulation per se. It is to spare Christians from the wrath of God that will be poured out in the very end. It's not about the tribulation but who the wrath is from. And the wrath of God was poured out on Christ for Christians. 

The purpose for the great tribulation... to get the remnant of Israel to cry out to Jesus for salvation. Plain and simple. Everything else will have failed the Jewish people as the world who blames them for everything comes crashing down on them. As a last resort they cry out to Jesus (Yehoshua) Hosha Nah (hosanna) Save Now, Yehoshua! And he will!

Before this, the Jews will be hoodwinked by the false messiah who confirms their covenant for one week of years only to renege on that conformation about half way through... once the Christians appear to be all exterminated. No person in that time will be able to buy or sell without the mark of worship of the beast 666 (the Seal of Solomon or star of David).  Christians will not and will be beheaded etc. for being the plug in what could be a spiritual flow of peace and prosperity the world has never seen before... at least that's how the beast sells the idea. So Christians will be over come and suffer and die and be driven underground for their very survival. 3.5 years in most will be dead. The few who remain alive will be raptured before the wrath of God begins.

 

 

Ding, ding, ding. It is Jacobs trouble. It is to bring Israel to repentance. The Church is already in Gods hands. Why would God need to refine that which is already refined ? The Last Trump is the sound of God calling the Church home, and Israel to Atonement. Feast of Atonement comes after the Feast of Trumpets.

[Defending the Name]

On 23/03/2016 at 1:44 PM, JohnD said:

What IS the rapture exactly?

Genesis 5:23–24 (AV)

23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Where did he go?

He obviously vanished physically from Earth. But where did he go body, soul, and spirit?

 

 

"Enoch was not; for God took him"

Enoch passed away like any human being, that is he died and this is the way the author put it as God taking him away. 

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, Defending the Name said:

Enoch passed away like any human being, that is he died and this is the way the author put it as God taking him away. 

 

Uh, maybe not:

By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

Heb 11:5

By the way, I did not add the uppercase letters, that is in the NASB translation.

[JohnD]

Good one!

[Defending the Name]

20 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Uh, maybe not:

By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

Heb 11:5

By the way, I did not add the uppercase letters, that is in the NASB translation.

Maybe you are right but the old testament author didn't mention that he didn't die. The author gives a chronology of years leading up to him being no more because God took him away. 

The Hebrews author states that he would not see death. Look at the word seeing and what that implies. Seeing doesn't mean tasting for all men are destined to die once.  The Hebrews author with reference to the word seeing is implying a death that is not tasted, meaning not felt.  For Enoch death came suddenly and he didn't feel it. Seeing death requires tasting meaning experiencing the bitterness of death.  It seems Enoch was pardoned from the pains of slow death, especially an elderly person who has lived so long. 

21When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah.22After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away. (Genesis 5:22-24)

[Omegaman 3.0]

Interstingly also, in that Gen 5 passage, the death of 8 individuals is noted with the phrase:

"and he died" as opposed the the exception of Enoch, where it says "he was no more, because God took him away".

[Defending the Name]

10 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Interstingly also, in that Gen 5 passage, the death of 8 individuals is noted with the phrase:

"and he died" as opposed the the exception of Enoch, where it says "he was no more, because God took him away".

Yes quite rightly observed. However Enoch had been pardoned from the pain of death. Usually when a person was killed or died of painfull disease it is described and labelled as death. God taking Enoch away implies a peaceful exist from this life where Enoch would be no more according to the old testament author.

Death according to the Hebrews writer is the Act or process of dying and not so much the outcome. If a person dies in their sleep after the previous day they're was nothing wrong with them medically then God took that person away because there is no explanation to cause of death. 

[Defending the Name]

Enoch didn't see death coming because it was unexpected without experiencing or tasting its pains.

[Defending the Name]

The context of culture is important in interpreting biblical text. Think Jewish culture.