The Remnants of Israel

[Sister]

10 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Literally in the Hebrew, "I will sift the house of Israel in all the nations." The purpose of sifting grain is to separate the grain out from everything else. What the Lord is saying here is that he knows who his people are that are living among the nations, and will separate them out and bring them back to their land. Therefore the passage goes on to say,

Amos 9:14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel... 15 I will plant them in their land...

Which is exactly what He has been doing for some time now, and will continue to do hereafter, stage by stage.

Hi William

The Lord knows who is of Israel.  He knows where all his figs have been scattered, whether good and bad.  The figs that are already dead, it does not matter, because God who owns all the souls of men has their souls in his possession. He has a storage house for all souls, ...remember this verse;

John 14:2   In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Now this doesn't not mean that all dead souls are currently alive, and aware of anything, but just preserved for whatever God intends to do with them.  Some are kept in "the barn" preserved for the 1st resurrection, some are preserved to be brought back during the millennium in the flesh, and the rest are preserved for destruction at the 2nd judgement.  Every soul is sorted, preserved and kept in their category in whatever room.  Each soul is sorted at his death, for after this he cannot change anything.

So with the house of Israel, they are sorted also.  If they are chosen to return to the promised land during the millennium because of "mercy", then each and every single one of them has to be sifted.  Sifted to decide who will return into the Kingdom as a remnant of Israel during the millennium in his flesh. 

The remnants of Israel are only according to the "election of grace".  It does not include all of them, but the ones chosen only, and these chosen will make up the whole house of Israel who will bear God's name and go through his Word.

 

 

[Sister]

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I'm not so sure I agree with this if you're implying that only NT saints take part in the first resurrection.

Jesus said this;

John 6:44   No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65   And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

How can Israel or any man who were born and died before Christ came enter into the first resurrection?  The spirit of truth was not given then, and if the spirit of truth is not present (the holy spirit) then how can they be raised into that first resurrection?

 Luke 20:35   But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

  Luke 20:36   Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

  Luke 20:37   Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

  Luke 20:38   For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Abraham was God's favourite, and Isaac and Jacob were very special also.  They feared God, yet what is God trying to show us here?  Of course he was their God, but he is speaking of the first resurrection here.  Without Christ there is no life, all are dead.

 

John 6:49   Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

John 6:58   This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

That bread is Christ.  They didn't have Christ yet, that same bread (spiritual food) 

They did not worship the one that rose from the dead.  We today have this testimony, they did not have this same testimony back then, and they did not have the light that Christ gave, the bread of life,  so they will be taught Christ during the millennium because everything is for him and through him.  Which is the reason for the millennium, so that all must go through Christ now, even past generations before they get their change in the 2nd resurrection.  Christ is the door, all have to go through that door, no man can come in any other way without that bread.

 

 

 

[Sister]

 

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What did Jesus do for three days and nights in the belly of the earth?

• Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.” Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?  He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.  Ephesians 4:8-10

  When Jesus ascended, which captives did He lead captive?  1 Peter 3:19 states that He made proclamation to spirits in prison.  Those captives?

 

 

 Ephesians 4:4   There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

  Ephesians 4:5   One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

  Ephesians 4:6   One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

  Ephesians 4:7   But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

  Ephesians 4:8   Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

The devil has held men captive from the beginning.  It says all men are in sin.  That spiritual prison, the jail cell, where the devil puts his prisoners (spiritually) has now been taken over by Christ.  He has the keys to that prison, meaning  he is the one that can open the doors and let the captives out.  He's captured captivity, it's in his hands now and he decides who he will let out.

So it's not speaking of those captives (the fallen angels), but the living.  He lets the living captives out, by giving them truth.  That's the only way they can come out, by following the truth which Christ gives, the Word of God.

John 6:44   No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Unless the Father draws one to Christ, he cannot come out, for Christ holds the keys.

 

John 10:3   To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
 

 

[Esther4:14]

There are a couple questions that I have reading through this.  The first is that I don't see why every time someone reads about a remnant they always think that this pertains to the millennium, which says in the book of Revelation, " I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They^[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4).  

How this requires anyone to be a Jew to enter into the millennial kingdom, I do not know.  

The prophecy pretty clear makes the opportunity hard and available to all.  

In the book of Isaiah when it is talking about a remnant spared.  This has always been one of my favorite verses even, because He says, " Destruction has been decreed,
    overwhelming and righteous," (Isaiah 10:22).  

Because it is one of those verses that so clearly tells you who He is.  He is a God who makes decisions that He does not waver on!  He has decreed destruction.  There will be no changing His mind.  

This is why I love Him.  He will do what He says He will.  

Now today we have people saying that the people who do not accept Him are God's chosen people.  Therefore, every time we hear a verse about this or that remnantness, we think along these terms that seem easy enough to understand.  

But, where in the the Bible is the persecution of the church prophesied.  Where does it does it say that the ones who follow Him will be persecuted for a time.  That there will be no way to remove this thorn from our flesh (2 Corinthians 12).  When does it say in the prophecy that this thorn that people have suffered with blamelessly as servants of Christ since He was crucified for our sake will be removed.  

Just something to consider when we aim to make everything in prophecy about people who do not even accept that He would die on a cross for them.  This is apparently not enough.  

Would return to the land like He didn't matter.  Would take it back as though they deserved it because of what someone else did.  Because someone knew Him even if they don't.  

Somewhere in these same verses, maybe even this one, is the church that has suffered for their faith throughout this time that remains unnoticed because of their jealousy (Romans 11:11) that is described in Revelation.  

This is why there would only be a remnant.  But, does the remnant have to be a Jew, I don't know.   

The world continues to accept Him everyday, while Israel just wonders how they can build a tower to protect themselves from being scattered again.  

" There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile," (Romans 2:9).  

I could say it sounds like Isaiah is talking about the abomination of desolation.  This is the destruction that is decreed in the land that only a remnant will be saved from.  But, then on the other hand, I have no idea.  

However, when Paul talks about all Israel being saved (Romans 11:26)I still think he is talking about the ones whom have been given to Him from the Father.

" No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day," (John 6:44).  

When he says that there will be some saved from the Jews, which will be included in what is to be all of Israel.  In other words, they will be added among the church, it is to encourage the ones who are being persecuted by the Jews ( Romans 15:16, 1 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 2:22; 2 Corinthians 2:24, 2 Corinthians 2:26; Titus 2:3-4, Titus 2:12; Philippians 3:2; Colossians 2:16;  1 Thessalonians 2:14; 1 Timothy 6:5; Titus 1:10; Titus 1:14; Titus 2:9;).  Therefore, there is no need to be afraid of your persecutors because some will be included among all of Israel.  I still find it hard to understand how if someone can accept Christ, they cannot be considered part of Israel, but to understand this you only have to look at the immigration process to go to Israel.  Are you Sephardic or Ashkenazi.  Just a regular Ellis Island screening process.  

 I still question everything anyone has to say about how prophecy only applies to people who reject Christ because they can never explain where the prophecy says church will be persecuted without the New Testament.  I do not believe that is because it is not there.  I would love to understand when He said that when He would come to set the captive free, how this would entail 2000 years of persecution for His followers (Isaiah 61:1).  

The church has been persecuted.  What we would call Israel has not been "persecuted."  They have been held back (2 Thessalonians 2:7) because if it were not so, the church would not have survived.  

There was no persecution in the Old Covenant.  They were given anything and everything they needed, and any persecution in the history of Judaism after Christ could not have been avoided because the alternative was to be persecuted as a Christian, so what does this mean?  When we read about the persecution of Israel in the scripture, is this really the prophecy pertaining to the experience the experience of the church?  But, oh no that would mean we would consider a gentile part of Israel.  

Does the church suffer for Israel's disobedience?

And, if we suffer for Israel's disobedience, why does is the church being told they will get a different reward?  

But, I can listen to no one person dribble on an on about people being more favored than the ones who have given their lives for Christ any longer unless someone can explain to me when the prophets knew that following Christ would entail persecution till His return.  It truly irritates me.  I have read the Bible.  I just don't know if when I read the Bible, I was then forced to see what I was seeing in a way that was more broadly acceptable.  

So, Sister, who the remnant is I do not know because I am still working my way outside this mold that will one day lead to the requiring of mark.  It really could be the church for all I know because taking the leap of faith outside of what most people are comfortable with always gets me in trouble.  I am really to the point where I think time will tell who God really considers to be Israel.  We will know when the covenant is made (Daniel 9:27), and then we will have a better idea of who the remnant will be.  

Peace.  

 

 

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, Sister said:

Last Daze

I see the 144,000 as being raised immortal.  The firstfruits of the the first resurrection.

I guess I'm not following you.  When the 144k are first introduced in Revelation 7, do you see them as immortal?

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, Sister said:

Jesus said this;

John 6:44   No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65   And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

How can Israel or any man who were born and died before Christ came enter into the first resurrection?  The spirit of truth was not given then, and if the spirit of truth is not present (the holy spirit) then how can they be raised into that first resurrection?

 Luke 20:35   But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

  Luke 20:36   Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

  Luke 20:37   Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

  Luke 20:38   For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Abraham was God's favourite, and Isaac and Jacob were very special also.  They feared God, yet what is God trying to show us here?  Of course he was their God, but he is speaking of the first resurrection here.  Without Christ there is no life, all are dead.

 

John 6:49   Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

John 6:58   This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

That bread is Christ.  They didn't have Christ yet, that same bread (spiritual food) 

They did not worship the one that rose from the dead.  We today have this testimony, they did not have this same testimony back then, and they did not have the light that Christ gave, the bread of life,  so they will be taught Christ during the millennium because everything is for him and through him.  Which is the reason for the millennium, so that all must go through Christ now, even past generations before they get their change in the 2nd resurrection.  Christ is the door, all have to go through that door, no man can come in any other way without that bread.
 

I don't agree with the delineation you're trying to make here.  The Word has always existed.  The fact that at some point He became a man and confirmed / began the new covenant doesn't mean that he didn't previously exist and that people weren't previously drawn to Him by the Father.

• They did not thirst when He led them through the deserts.  He made the water flow out of the rock for them; He split the rock and the water gushed forth.  Isaiah 48:21
• And all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.  1 Corinthians 10:4

It's always been about lifestyle worship; and it always will be.  How we live reflects what we believe in.  Always has.  Those who believe in the Truth are "in Christ" regardless of which side of the incarnation they are on.

[Sister]

13 hours ago, Last Daze said:

 

Last Daze

Look at the timing of these events.

In Rev 7 the 144,000 are "sealed" just before the wrath starts (the 7 trumpets), because the angels are told to hold back the 4 winds and not harm the earth UNTIL they are sealed.  So they must be "alive" when this sealing takes place, and the 7 trumpets are about to sound.

In Rev 14, the 144,000 are standing on Mt Sion with Jesus.  They are standing before the throne of God, the four beasts, and the 24 elders with Jesus singing that song no man knows but them and those before the throne.  It looks to me like they are in heaven. 

 Revelation 14:5   And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. (Redeemed)

 

Then read further in that same chapter, the warning not to take the mark of the beast;

 Revelation 14:9   And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

  Revelation 14:10   The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

 

Go to Rev 11 now.

 Revelation 11:1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

 Revelation 11:2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

In Rev 11, the temple only is measured, those who stand at the altar, but "the court" is given to the gentiles to be trodden on and they are not "measured".

This matches Daniel where the  "the saints" are given into the false prophets hands for 3 1/2 years.
Daniel 7:21   I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

  Daniel 7:25   And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

These saints must be those in the court, the ones who are NOT MEASURED.

Read further down in Rev 11, the two witnesses come on to the scene.  So those "in side the temple" are "measured" before the 2 witnesses start their 3 1/2 year testimony.

Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

The timing of these events all show one thing - The first being the "sealing of the 144,000" is before the wrath starts (7 trumpets), so I believe it is "a glimpse" of their "resurrection".  In that same chapter, AFTER THAT, shows THE REST OF THE SAINTS, ALL TOGETHER, standing before the throne of God in white robes resurrected.  We know this happens at the 7th trump, because many of these have gone through tribulation, given into the hands of the "gentiles" to be persecuted;

Revelation 7:9   After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
 

Revelation 7:13   And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Revelation 7:14   And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:15   Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. (Resurrected already)

Notice the large multitude WASHED THEIR ROBES WHITE by coming out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION?  They must be those IN THE COURT. 

CONCLUSION:  There is a difference.  The 144,000 sealed BEFORE TRIBULATION, and the large multitude AFTER THE TRIBULATION.  In the end, all are saved. 

I see a pattern, when it mentions the 144,000, whether being "sealed", or standing on "Mt Sion" with Christ, it is before the wrath starts, same as those inside the temple at the altar which are measured, is also BEFORE the wrath.  This is them I believe, who are measured, the 144,000 who follow the Lamb wheresoever he goes, they will NOT BE GIVEN INTO THE HANDS OF THE GENTILES, so what does this tell us?

 

[Sister]

13 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I don't agree with the delineation you're trying to make here.  The Word has always existed.  The fact that at some point He became a man and confirmed / began the new covenant doesn't mean that he didn't previously exist and that people weren't previously drawn to Him by the Father.

• They did not thirst when He led them through the deserts.  He made the water flow out of the rock for them; He split the rock and the water gushed forth.  Isaiah 48:21
• And all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.  1 Corinthians 10:4

It's always been about lifestyle worship; and it always will be.  How we live reflects what we believe in.  Always has.  Those who believe in the Truth are "in Christ" regardless of which side of the incarnation they are on.

They worshiped God because of all the miracles he performed for them.  He forced them out of Egypt, they had no choice, they had to go, they were being led out of bondage.

God fed them, gave them shelter from the heat and the cold, and protected them from their enemies, but still they complained that "life was better in Egypt", and remember when they worshiped the golden calf when Moses was upon the mountain receiving the commandments?  40 years of walking is a long time.  God took them through the long route for a purpose.  Just about this whole generation who came out of Egypt died on the way.  Not even Moses made it into the land promised, but their children entered, because the rest were ungrateful.

Hebrews 3:8   Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Hebrews 3:9   When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

Hebrews 3:10   Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

Hebrews 3:11   So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

The food they ate, was given by God.  This was not spiritual food, but food to keep them alive.  They did not follow God because in their heart was to know him, but always expecting him to keep them, to do everything for them.  That rock that was Christ, gave them water to drink, physical water, and not spiritual water.

The same in the world today.  People are coming to God to "get".  Many come to God because they want something out of him, and not because they want to know their God.  They worship God because they want something in return.  They give hoping to receive more in return, and get something back, or they want the spiritual gifts so that they can stand out and look special before men, they want a job, a wife, friends, always something they want out of God, in return for their worship.  This is the spirit of "get", or "gimme".  Gimme this and gimme that. 

All the multitudes who came to hear Jesus preach came only for the food...the bread, and the fish and see the miracles.  Jesus said this himself.  He saw inside their hearts.  They did not come just because they wanted to know their God.

There is a difference, and we can learn by what happened in the past with Israel.  The same goes for us today.  God is not looking for such to seek him, ...but ones who just really want to know their God and care only for what they can do for him and not the opposite.

In the desert, they did not have the full truth, or the light that Jesus gave.  They did not know that they were going to be an example for us today, and did not know the whole purpose on what God was doing back then and how everything was going to be a learning lesson for us today?  We can look back now and see the meaning for everything that God did, because Jesus has given us the light, the understanding.  They did not have that understanding, although the Word of God was instructing them and keeping them alive, safe from their enemies, but were not revealed the whole truth.

 

[Sister]

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This is why there would only be a remnant.  But, does the remnant have to be a Jew, I don't know.   

Hi Esther4:14

The remnants are all from Israel's bloodline.  There would be many mixed in there, but of Israel's bloodline.  There is a clear separation here from Israel and the gentiles.  Israel here during the millennium are flesh.  The remnants have been brought back into that place chosen from the beginning (Jerusalem).  These are not of the resurrection, there is a difference, and this is where the difference is.

 Isaiah 49:6   And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, (Jesus) and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

 Isaiah 60:1   Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. (Israel)

 Isaiah 60:2   For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. (Israel)

 Isaiah 60:3   And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

 Isaiah 60:4   Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.

  Isaiah 60:5   Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

 

 Isaiah 60:6   The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD.

  Isaiah 60:7   All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.
 

 Isaiah 60:10   And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.

  Isaiah 60:11   Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

  Isaiah 60:12   For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

  Isaiah 60:13   The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.

  Isaiah 60:14   The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

  Isaiah 60:15   Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

 

[Sister]

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I could say it sounds like Isaiah is talking about the abomination of desolation.  This is the destruction that is decreed in the land that only a remnant will be saved from.  But, then on the other hand, I have no idea.  

Esther4:14

Lets take a look at that verse in it's context.

 Isaiah 10:20   And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

  Isaiah 10:21   The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

  Isaiah 10:22   For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

  Isaiah 10:23   For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.

Out of the whole house of Israel, only a remnant is returning.  When everything is consumed, worked out by God, his plan done, finished, righteousness will overflow.