Contemporary Daniel 7 interpretation

[Marcus O'Reillius]

From some writing of mine:

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Another reason to reject this as a historical perspective has to do with how nations are labeled as animals by the Bible.  Like Medes–Persia, Greece already has a known animal form to represent it in God’s view: the Goat.

    ^{DA 8:5} As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between his eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground.

    ^{DA 8:8} The goat became very great, but at the height of his power his large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

    ^{DA 8:21} The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. ²² The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

Greece already has an animal form to represent it, verified by explanation from the “Son of Man.”  Here, the speed of Alexander’s conquest is figuratively shown as not touching the earth, like a bird moves, but without wing.  Secondly, as having authority to rule, or dominion, the four nations that come up from Alexander are diminished in power, and so do not meet the test of the attribute given the third beast, which should dictate that it is considered as one nation within one body.

What I find interesting is that the ancient kingdoms of Daniel 2 were first, identified with a man, and then with two "clean" animals, followed by a fourth with no particular animal association.

In Daniel 7, we have three "unclean" predator animals all arising at the same time, from the same "sea" (Europe - a sea of peoples), followed by a fourth which is labeled terrible.

So while there is a progression of succeeding Kingdoms in Daniel 2, no such succession is expressed in Daniel 7.

Likewise, the real rub for me, is the parenthetical note in Daniel 7:12 - 

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12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time. (NASB)

This disqualifies a historical perspective of Babylon - Medes/Persia - Greece for Daniel 7; it would go against the factual statement made here for them to continue since the first two are long gone and the third is vapid shadow of its former self.

I know it's been taught many times over that Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are perfect matches, but as far as the facts as stated in the text show: there are incongruities between the two which contradict that interpretation no matter how long its been taught.

I look at Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 as being parallel accounts to each other, where the first is a broad overview going from before Daniel's time to the end, and the subsequent vision being a detailed account of that very same end having a common element at that point: Rome as the fourth terrible beast realized only after the full growing age of the Church.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f256/marcus_o_reillius/eschatology/Danieltimelines19b.jpg

Edited April 1, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius
Provided a link to a picture.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marcus,

You have made some very good points there bro, & it is so good to see someone actually reading God`s word & not just parroting a certain position. Well done, in my books. I`m looking forward to discussing the details with you. However to start with I so agree that the 4 beasts of Daniel 7 are about contemporary powers, great federations that we can all quite easily see. Actually I have more receptivity from non Christians & Christians not systemised who can see these great powers & what they are doing. So you said -

`12

As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time. (NASB)

This disqualifies a historical perspective of Babylon - Medes/Persia - Greece for Daniel 7; it would go against the factual statement made here for them to continue since the first two are long gone and the third is vapid shadow of its former self.

I know it's been taught many times over that Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are perfect matches, but as far as the facts as stated in the text show: there are incongruities between the two which contradict that interpretation no matter how long its been taught.`

That is a great start. Marilyn.

[Kan]

9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Marcus,

You have made some very good points there bro, & it is so good to see someone actually reading God`s word & not just parroting a certain position. Well done, in my books. I`m looking forward to discussing the details with you. However to start with I so agree that the 4 beasts of Daniel 7 are about contemporary powers, great federations that we can all quite easily see. Actually I have more receptivity from non Christians & Christians not systemised who can see these great powers & what they are doing. So you said -

 

 

The text on the other beasts having their world power removed and still continuing as nations, does not allow for the exclusive interpretation that they are reigning all at once, all it means is that they have their time as world empires and continue until the end of the world.

It does not say they are all reigning at once.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, Kan said:

It does not say they are all reigning at once.

True in an ultra literal sense; the prophecy in Daniel 7 does not explicitly state that., but then again, it can be legitimately inferred.

If you want to maintain a successive reigning, you will still have to reconcile that view to this statement which has them all existing simultaneously - 

Quote

12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time. (NASB)

 

Now the important part is that the first three beasts which make up the fourth (Rev 13:2), survive the destruction of the fourth terrible beast.

This is like having a chicken being able to run after its head is cut off.

In this case, the ruling council of ten Kings, supplanted by the little horn who rises from within, is that head.  When he and the false prophet are captured alive (Rev 19:20) at the final battle of the one 'seven' at Armageddon (Rev 16:16), the contemporary (I will join Marilyn C here on this point) three ruling powers are not totally eliminated at the same time, but persist in a diminished capacity for "an appointed period of time" - to which I will reference you to the final chapter of Daniel for the 30 (1290) and 45 days (1335) which come after the second half's 1260, which specifies some time between the one 'seven' and the Millennium rule of Christ Jesus.

 

[Marilyn C]

18 hours ago, Kan said:

The text on the other beasts having their world power removed and still continuing as nations, does not allow for the exclusive interpretation that they are reigning all at once, all it means is that they have their time as world empires and continue until the end of the world.

It does not say they are all reigning at once.

 

Hi Kan, (fellow Aussie)

Yes, we read that God says in His word regarding these former Empires that He dealt with them. Concerning the Babylonian Empire God said

`Mene; God has numbered thy kingdom, & FINISHED IT.

Tekel; You are weighed in the balances, & are found wanting,

Peres; Your kingdom is divided & given to the Medes & Persians….`(Dan. 5: 25 – 28)

Thus we read that God had finished with the Babylonian empire, the king, the other rulers, the army, the government. It is finished, gone no more. The Medes & Persians then took over control till the Greeks took over from them etc.

All the different ruling empires with their various types of governing have ALL GONE, FINISHED BY GOD. Thus there is NO possibility of those former world rulers still continuing today. The earth is still here, people are still here recognisable in their ethnic origins, BUT the governments have all gone. That is what God was judging & will also judge the last Gentile government.

Now you said -

`The text on the other beasts having their world power removed and still continuing as nations,…`

That really doesn`t make much sense as all the ethnic/nations of the world, continue on till judgment. The scripture is specifically naming 3 great powers/ federations that continue on as federations but without their former rulership.

All nations are from God & will go on into the millennium but the 3 `beasts` the contemporary great powers, after the 4^th is dealt with, will all go on for a short time as federations but under Christ`s rule.

Marilyn.

[Kan]

15 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

 

That really doesn`t make much sense as all the ethnic/nations of the world, continue on till judgment. The scripture is specifically naming 3 great powers/ federations that continue on as federations but without their former rulership.

All nations are from God & will go on into the millennium but the 3 `beasts` the contemporary great powers, after the 4^th is dealt with, will all go on for a short time as federations but under Christ`s rule.

Marilyn.

As you know, beasts represent mountains, which represent centralized or large populations, nations. These nations had their share of ruling the earth, but now they are only just nations, divided or whatever, but the masses of people still represent their territories. For example, we have the river Euphrates drying up in the end time, to make way for the Kings of the east. Water represents people. In the end, the middle east will be used as a giant military effort to meet the returning Christ and fight with Him (if that is at all possible) but we know that the battle never really starts, the armies are pounded by hail stones the size of beach balls. 

The fourth beast is different, its horn continues up to the end, but the beast is wounded and cut down before the return of the Lord, and before the end of the other nations.

In Revelation 13, we find that the beast has a wound which heals. But it never has the same power as in the dark ages, this time it has to have an image made to it which the world then worships.

We notice also that this same beast, has all the features of the four in Daniel, indicating that it has imbibed the methods of rule and combined them, and that the vision is a continuation of Daniel in more detail. It also shows that the agenda of Satan in the empires of the past, which has come to fruition in this beast which rules for 1260 years. 

What is more the little horn faces a judgment prior to the end, and is overcome by the truth. In the light of recent exposure of world wide systematic child abuse, satanic rituals in secret, and the corruption and control of governments, the Papacy and all its affiliations with world religions, is being judged, and yet despite all this the world still continues to worship and honor it, and all the kings and financial institutions (merchants) of the earth do obeisance. 

The saints do not try to hide this beast, but expose it and leave it. "Come out of her my people."

[Kan]

On 4/7/2016 at 9:43 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

True in an ultra literal sense; the prophecy in Daniel 7 does not explicitly state that., but then again, it can be legitimately inferred.

If you want to maintain a successive reigning, you will still have to reconcile that view to this statement which has them all existing simultaneously - 

 

Now the important part is that the first three beasts which make up the fourth (Rev 13:2), survive the destruction of the fourth terrible beast.

This is like having a chicken being able to run after its head is cut off.

In this case, the ruling council of ten Kings, supplanted by the little horn who rises from within, is that head.  When he and the false prophet are captured alive (Rev 19:20) at the final battle of the one 'seven' at Armageddon (Rev 16:16), the contemporary (I will join Marilyn C here on this point) three ruling powers are not totally eliminated at the same time, but persist in a diminished capacity for "an appointed period of time" - to which I will reference you to the final chapter of Daniel for the 30 (1290) and 45 days (1335) which come after the second half's 1260, which specifies some time between the one 'seven' and the Millennium rule of Christ Jesus.

The headless chicken running around is an apt description. 

I don't think it says that the three survive the fourth, or that they are reigning all at once, you admitted that, but you say that it can be inferred. Yes it can, if you have other texts which support that, but if not, then we have to remain stationary on this one until we get more info.

I find that the chapter goes into some detail of the judgement, and as in Daniel 12, it associates the 1260 year reign of the Papacy, with the subsequent judgement.

We typically assume that the judgement only refers to the return of the Lord, but as many have discovered their is a judgement before that in heaven. I have heard and read that there are three judgments, this one in heaven before the Lord returns, the day that He returns, and after the 1000 years. 

The 1290 years include the 1260 years plus 30 years of setting itself up. Daniel 12:11 talks about the set up. The 1335 years start with the 1290 years, and end in 1843, the last year of the 2300 years, when the sanctuary (in heaven) would be cleansed. It says to Daniel blessed is he who reaches this time. It also says that Daniel will die (rest) and will be standing in his lot at that time. Either he is resurrected, or he is standing in the presence of God, as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are. These people, like David and Mary are dead and buried, but as far as God is concerned only "sleep," as Jesus said about the dead, because at any time He can raise them back to life, as He will when He returns.

The purpose of this judgment, is not to condemn but to confirm and reveal entry to heaven. Does not God already know this? Yes, but people don't, angels don't, and intelligent people from other worlds don't. This judgement is for them, and for us when we read of its proceedings in heaven's record. It is important to know, because it shows the specifics of every life saved, in regards to the providence of God through circumstances, and His dealings with the angelic hosts and humanity. It is a fantastic revelation of God's kindness to all.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Kan,

You would do better, I believe to write a comment & then show the scripture concerning your point. As it is you have so much speculation & opinion that I will not even go there. (waste of time & effort bro). So let`s keep to the discussion, Dan. 7 `beasts.` Now you said -

`As you know, beasts represent mountains, which represent centralized or large populations, nations. These nations had their share of ruling the earth, but now they are only just nations, divided or whatever, but the masses of people still represent their territories…`

That is not correct, as large populations etc do not necessarily equal a Federation. There has to be a specific delineation of power amongst recognizable groups.

 

Kingdoms – Federations of Nations.

God`s word tells us that these `beasts` are kingdoms. (Federations of nations)

`The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon the earth…`(Dan. 7: 23)

These 4 `beasts` are great Federations that rule over the world at the same time for the last beast rises in power & treads down the others.

`….which shall be diverse from all kingdoms & shall devour the whole earth, & tread it down, & break it in pieces.`(Dan. 7: 23)

 

Kingdoms lose their power but still operate intact as a Federation.

These great Federations have their power taken away as great rulers however they continue as recognisable Federations for a short time after Christ returns. (4^th power dealt with).

 `As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion (power) taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season & a time.`(Dan. 7: 12)

Marcus said it well -

`This disqualifies a historical perspective of Babylon - Medes/Persia - Greece for Daniel 7; it would go against the factual statement made here for them to continue since the first two are long gone and the third is vapid shadow of its former self.`

 

We need to respect God`s word & look at what He says not what our opinions are.

Marilyn.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

17 hours ago, Kan said:

As you know, beasts represent mountains, which represent centralized or large populations, nations.

Like Marilyn, I balk at this interpretation which does not have Scriptural support.  Beasts represent nations, and this used to have significance prior to the mixing we have today in Europe.  Peter had a dream about such animals and rather than mean he could eat any animal, he concludes that the Gospel was to be preached to all and not just Israel.

17 hours ago, Kan said:

In Revelation 13, we find that the beast has a wound which heals. But it never has the same power as in the dark ages,

The fourth terrible beast has ten horns and seven heads.  This image is confounding, and if you were to draw it literally, I think you'd miss the importance of what these symbols mean.

As a way of an explanation, their meaning is revealed in Revelation chapter 17, where again we have a (scarlet) beast with ten horns and seven heads.

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9 Here is the mind which has wisdom.  The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

The seven mountains refer to Rome, which is also the center of the harlot (the Papacy within the Vatican).  This interpretation marries with previous OT prophecy in Daniel 2 which designates Rome as the final Kingdom.

They are also seven Kings, to which we can conclude they are all Roman Kings, or Romanesque.  There have been three renditions of Roman Empire after it's "fall" and the entire northern half of the Northern Hemisphere still operates in its mode.  We are the modern rendition of Rome, and today clay is "mixed" in from Daniel 2:43 - and that verb ('arab) is very interesting because as a noun, it means "steppe dweller" and it is also the word we use to get "Arab."

The aspect of time works its way into the mix when at the time of the end, five have fallen.  They are no more.  No clue is given to tell us who these five were, Hitler and Napoleon may be recent additions, but we can all have fun listing who we think are the five worse tyrants in history.  At the time of the end, one is.  It is this one who I designate as the anti-Christ.  The one who has yet to come at the time of the "end" with the one 'seven' is the one who rises up with all the people of the world after the Millennium when Satan leads the final rebellion - to which there are none left afterward.

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12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. 13 These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

The ten horns are also Kings.  They are not nations.  Most people look for the ten toes of Daniel 2 as nations.  Rather they are ruling figures.  Notice that they do not come with a Kingdom or nation.  They become Kings only when the fourth terrible beast comes to power - sort of a ruling council: much as the EU is embodied with its ruling council of 12 over 25 or more nations.  This is why I think the leopard makes up the "body" of the terrible beast seen in Revelation 13:2.

It is from within these ten horns, or Kings, or Ministers, that the little horn, or anti-Christ comes to power by "hamstringing" (the word in Daniel 2:8 is not the predominant agricultural term for uprooting in the Hebrew, and like so many other words, it has a dual meaning; in this case "to hamstring".  This particular take of mine agrees with the political machinations which the little horn is capable of in Daniel 8 as well.  Notice when the fourth beast is formed as a combination of three contemporary nations in Rev 13:2, that the ten Ministers are actually on the same page of being anti-Christ as the emerging true singular man will be.  In the end, the world powers are all anti-Christ; and so they are also all anti-Christian.  Remember, Jesus said they hated Him before they hated us, and we are hated because of Him.  This will make the Great Tribulation possible; we are a scourge to them only to be eliminated.

The main thing is that we have overlapping terms.  Beasts and dragons have more than one meaning.  Likewise, both horns and heads can mean the same thing: Kings.  Keeping these all straight is not easy - but then again eschatology is not meant for those young in the Word.  It takes wisdom to rightly discern.

One last thing aside from nations and kings:

17 hours ago, Kan said:

which has come to fruition in this beast which rules for 1260 years. 

I'm sorry, I cannot agree with this assessment which translates days to years.

I split the one 'seven' apart from the conditions the Gabriel gives in Daniel 9:26 which also lead up to the same "end" given in Daniel 9:27.  While Gabriel gives us the middle in 9:27, only in Revelation do we see it split up into distinct halves where there are profound differences.  These two halves are mentioned five times in chapters 11, 12, and 13.  Be careful in how you assign them, but they are days - not years.

The revelation in Revelation is that they seventy 'sevens' are made up of "prophetic years" of 360 days each, where each month is 30 days.

Good day!

[Kan]

 

Like Marilyn, I balk at this interpretation which does not have Scriptural support.  Beasts represent nations, and this used to have significance prior to the mixing we have today in Europe.  Peter had a dream about such animals and rather than mean he could eat any animal, he concludes that the Gospel was to be preached to all and not just Israel.

The fourth terrible beast has ten horns and seven heads.  This image is confounding, and if you were to draw it literally, I think you'd miss the importance of what these symbols mean.

As a way of an explanation, their meaning is revealed in Revelation chapter 17, where again we have a (scarlet) beast with ten horns and seven heads.

The seven mountains refer to Rome, which is also the center of the harlot (the Papacy within the Vatican).  This interpretation marries with previous OT prophecy in Daniel 2 which designates Rome as the final Kingdom.

They are also seven Kings, to which we can conclude they are all Roman Kings, or Romanesque.  There have been three renditions of Roman Empire after it's "fall" and the entire northern half of the Northern Hemisphere still operates in its mode.  We are the modern rendition of Rome, and today clay is "mixed" in from Daniel 2:43 - and that verb ('arab) is very interesting because as a noun, it means "steppe dweller" and it is also the word we use to get "Arab."

The aspect of time works its way into the mix when at the time of the end, five have fallen.  They are no more.  No clue is given to tell us who these five were, Hitler and Napoleon may be recent additions, but we can all have fun listing who we think are the five worse tyrants in history.  At the time of the end, one is.  It is this one who I designate as the anti-Christ.  The one who has yet to come at the time of the "end" with the one 'seven' is the one who rises up with all the people of the world after the Millennium when Satan leads the final rebellion - to which there are none left afterward.

The ten horns are also Kings.  They are not nations.  Most people look for the ten toes of Daniel 2 as nations.  Rather they are ruling figures.  Notice that they do not come with a Kingdom or nation.  They become Kings only when the fourth terrible beast comes to power - sort of a ruling council: much as the EU is embodied with its ruling council of 12 over 25 or more nations.  This is why I think the leopard makes up the "body" of the terrible beast seen in Revelation 13:2.

It is from within these ten horns, or Kings, or Ministers, that the little horn, or anti-Christ comes to power by "hamstringing" (the word in Daniel 2:8 is not the predominant agricultural term for uprooting in the Hebrew, and like so many other words, it has a dual meaning; in this case "to hamstring".  This particular take of mine agrees with the political machinations which the little horn is capable of in Daniel 8 as well.  Notice when the fourth beast is formed as a combination of three contemporary nations in Rev 13:2, that the ten Ministers are actually on the same page of being anti-Christ as the emerging true singular man will be.  In the end, the world powers are all anti-Christ; and so they are also all anti-Christian.  Remember, Jesus said they hated Him before they hated us, and we are hated because of Him.  This will make the Great Tribulation possible; we are a scourge to them only to be eliminated.

The main thing is that we have overlapping terms.  Beasts and dragons have more than one meaning.  Likewise, both horns and heads can mean the same thing: Kings.  Keeping these all straight is not easy - but then again eschatology is not meant for those young in the Word.  It takes wisdom to rightly discern.

One last thing aside from nations and kings:

I'm sorry, I cannot agree with this assessment which translates days to years.

I split the one 'seven' apart from the conditions the Gabriel gives in Daniel 9:26 which also lead up to the same "end" given in Daniel 9:27.  While Gabriel gives us the middle in 9:27, only in Revelation do we see it split up into distinct halves where there are profound differences.  These two halves are mentioned five times in chapters 11, 12, and 13.  Be careful in how you assign them, but they are days - not years.

The revelation in Revelation is that they seventy 'sevens' are made up of "prophetic years" of 360 days each, where each month is 30 days.

Good day!

One of the major keys to understand time references in the visions of Daniel and Revelation is the year day principle. Without this key none of the prophecies have any meaning or proper placement. For instance, the appearance of the Messiah on earth and His death are predicted by that principle. Unless the Lord died in another era we don't know of. The 483 years from the command to rebuilt Jerusalem by Artaxerxes in 457 BC, announce the beginning of the Messiah's mission on earth. Another 7 years after that, and the probation for the Jews as the chosen nation were over. In the middle of that last week of the 70 weeks, which equal 490 years, the Messiah would be cut off, and the sacrificial system on earth came to an end so far as God was concerned.

There are numerous points you have made in this post, which I can't respond to casually, or all at once. But I agree with most of what you have posted.