Contemporary Daniel 7 interpretation

[Marilyn C]

Hi Diaste,

I think you have missed a few points, bro.

1. `The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom...` (Dan. 7: 23)

You say the `beasts` are kings, & not kingdoms etc yet further on you say the 3rd beast `cannot represent any kingdom but Greece.` The `beasts` are kings representing kingdoms, as God`s word says.

2. `I watched till the beast was slain, & its body destroyed & given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season & a time.` (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)

Now if the first 3 beasts are Babylon, Medo-Persia & Greece then how can the last beast tread them down & then those kingdoms still go on, as scripture tells us?

Marilyn.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Diaste,

I think you have missed a few points, bro.

1. `The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom...` (Dan. 7: 23)

You say the `beasts` are kings, & not kingdoms etc yet further on you say the 3rd beast `cannot represent any kingdom but Greece.` The `beasts` are kings representing kingdoms, as God`s word says.

2. `I watched till the beast was slain, & its body destroyed & given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season & a time.` (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)

Now if the first 3 beasts are Babylon, Medo-Persia & Greece then how can the last beast tread them down & then those kingdoms still go on, as scripture tells us?

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn, if I might comment although your question was not directed at me.

None of those kingdoms (empires) exist any more, nor will exist as kingdoms (empires) in the future.    What still exists is the peoples of those kingdoms, the Greeks, the Iranians, the Iraqi's, the Egyptians, etc.   The old Roman empire trampled all over the peoples of those kingdoms during it's heyday.

In the end times, the EU is the Roman Empire, it will eventually gain control of the territories once part of those three kingdoms (empires) - noted by the composite body of the beast in Revelation 13 - for that last 42 months before Jesus returns.

The EU leadership will be solidly behind the person who becomes the beast in Revelation 13, buying into him (claiming to be) as God.     The people of the EU will in large part take the mark, 666, or the beast's name; and the people elsewhere around the world doing likewise will be destined for the eternal fire.     So those people as a kingdom (of the beast) are not going to continue.

There will be other people who become Christians during that time from the peoples of the other three beasts, historically speaking, that will survive the great tribulation.    Those people will continue into the millennium, preserving the recognition of themselves as the nations they are in. 

The EU ( the kingdom of the beast) on the other hand is not going to be allowed to continue into the millennium.

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

Hi Marilyn, if I might comment although your question was not directed at me.

None of those kingdoms (empires) exist any more, nor will exist as kingdoms (empires) in the future.    What still exists is the peoples of those kingdoms, the Greeks, the Iranians, the Iraqi's, the Egyptians, etc.   The old Roman empire trampled all over the peoples of those kingdoms during it's heyday.

 

 

 

 

Hi douggg,

That`s fine bro. We are all discussing here. Now glad you said that none of those kingdoms (Babylon, Medes & Persians, Greece etc) exist any more. God`s word tells us very clearly concerning Babylon for example -

`God has numbered your kingdom, & finished it.` (Dan. 5: 26)

A kingdom comprises - a king, a government, an army & the people. These have all gone concerning the Babylonian kingdom. So when God says -

`as for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season & a time.` (Dan. 7: 12)

These beast kingdoms had their dominion taken away after the final beast is destroyed. God refers to them as a kingdom, not just people who over 2000 years later are on the land. To have their dominion taken away in the time of the final beast shows very clearly that these beasts are NOT ancient kingdoms but contemporary with the final world ruler.

Marilyn.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2016 by Marilyn C

[Kan]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Diaste,

I think you have missed a few points, bro.

1. `The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom...` (Dan. 7: 23)

You say the `beasts` are kings, & not kingdoms etc yet further on you say the 3rd beast `cannot represent any kingdom but Greece.` The `beasts` are kings representing kingdoms, as God`s word says.

2. `I watched till the beast was slain, & its body destroyed & given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season & a time.` (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)

Now if the first 3 beasts are Babylon, Medo-Persia & Greece then how can the last beast tread them down & then those kingdoms still go on, as scripture tells us?

Marilyn.

Verses 11 & 12, This is talking about two different endings of the kingdoms, the one of losing both dominion and existence, the other three of losing dominion and having a semblance of lasting. 

The last beast goes out in flames, the previous three have their dominion removed, here is the difference. That's history so far, and we have one to end, which one?

It is very obvious that the last beast cannot be just the old Roman empire, because it crumbled under the Barbarians, but it is the persecuting Church of Rome which developed out of Rome and reigned for 1260 years, and it is still here today. It had a "deadly wound" but it was healed and "all the world wondered after" it.

It did not end. The little horn rambles on until it is destroyed by God.

The terrible image of the fourth beast has less to do with the Roman army, because there have been formidable armies prior to Rome. The Alexandrian forces are an example, defeating an army where they were seriously out-numbered. The terror of this last beast is not military might, but warfare against the saints, is it not? 

While it is plain that Rome killed Christians along with villains for entertainment, it was the Church of Rome which would bring about the great tribulation of 1260 years. That was the terrible part about it. Other than that, this last beast is not too different than the previous three.

The left-overs of the Babylonian, Persian and Greek kingdoms are still with us today, but this last beast (which carries the blasphemous little religious horn, which persecutes the saints and still exists today) comes to an end through the vengeance of God on it. It is essentially the same as the toes in the image - "in the days of these kings," God will set up His kingdom...

The texts don't necessarily say that the fourth beast is killed first and then the others dwindle on, as if they were all reigning contemporaneously. I think that is a view which would need another text showing the same.

 

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

Hi Marilyn, if I might comment although your question was not directed at me.

None of those kingdoms (empires) exist any more, nor will exist as kingdoms (empires) in the future.    What still exists is the peoples of those kingdoms, the Greeks, the Iranians, the Iraqi's, the Egyptians, etc.   The old Roman empire trampled all over the peoples of those kingdoms during it's heyday.

In the end times, the EU is the Roman Empire, it will eventually gain control of the territories once part of those three kingdoms (empires) - noted by the composite body of the beast in Revelation 13 - for that last 42 months before Jesus returns.

The EU leadership will be solidly behind the person who becomes the beast in Revelation 13, buying into him (claiming to be) as God.     The people of the EU will in large part take the mark, 666, or the beast's name; and the people elsewhere around the world doing likewise will be destined for the eternal fire.     So those people as a kingdom (of the beast) are not going to continue.

There will be other people who become Christians during that time from the peoples of the other three beasts, historically speaking, that will survive the great tribulation.    Those people will continue into the millennium, preserving the recognition of themselves as the nations they are in. 

The EU ( the kingdom of the beast) on the other hand is not going to be allowed to continue into the millennium.

 

 

 

Hi douggg,

On to the next part of your comments. Counting -

1st beast, 2nd, beast, 3rd beast, 4th beast, and the last one is destroyed. 4 beasts, yet you are talking about 5 kingdoms. Do you have scriptures to support your thoughts? Otherwise it is just someone`s idea of God`s symbols.

I will say that I do believe the EU has a big role in the final Global Government, which is substantiated from scripture. (A topic in its self) However I don`t see the EU treading down the other kingdoms, plus being `dreadful & terrible. exceedingly strong.....devouring & breaking....trampling...& different from all the beasts....` (Dan. 7: 7)  

Marilyn.

 

 

[Marilyn C]

4 minutes ago, Kan said:

Verses 11 & 12, This is talking about two different endings of the kingdoms, the one of losing both dominion and existence, the other three of losing dominion and having a semblance of lasting. 

The last beast goes out in flames, the previous three have their dominion removed, here is the difference. That's history so far, and we have one to end, which one?

 

 

Hi Kan,

Well it is not history for the final beast has not yet devoured & trampled the other kingdoms, & the final beast has not yet been destroyed. When that happens, then the other beasts, kingdoms will have their dominion taken, but still keep going. That is all yet to happen.

Marilyn.

[Kan]

7 hours ago, douggg said:

The beast in Revelation 17 and 12 is represented by Satan - because those chapters contain a time stamp which the actual beast is still in the bottomless pit.

It is not until Revelation 13 that the beast will have ascended out of the bottomless pit, to possess the slain and recovered man of sin.    It is the same beast in all three chapters..... but, in Revelation 17 and 12 picturing Satan, the actual beast is in the bottomless pit and cannot be seen when he is there, even by John.      John is told about him by the angel in Revelation 17:7.     What John sees is Satan the power behind the beast.

 

Revelation 17 - the beast (in the bottomless pit) timestamped at the time of John.   Ten horns no crowns - come to power in the future.   Seven heads no crowns - the 7 kings prophecy incomplete.

Revelation 12 - the beast (in the bottomless pit) timestamped with 7 years left to Jesus's Return.    Ten horns no crowns, actual beast still in the bottomless pit.    Seven heads have crowns - king 7, the little horn has come to power, completing the 7 kings prophecy.

Revelation 13 - the beast (out of the bottomless pit) timestamped with 42 months left to Jesus's Return.    Ten horns have crowns, they have given their kingdom to the beast, and rule with him.      Seven heads no crowns - king 7 has been killed, ending the prophecy of the 7 kings.     King 7 is brought back to life to become king 8 possessed by the actual beast an unclean spirit - which we would call a demon - which will have ascended out of the bottomless pit.

I go along with the gist of what you are saying. The last part of the prophecies to be fulfilled, are about the last beast in Revelation - the red one, which is a tricky one, because it "was, and is not, and yet is." That sounds like it is stealthy or invisible to the world.

This last beast has to be associated with the little horn on the fourth beast of Daniel 7, which also goes right to the end of time and is destroyed by God. 

[Kan]

28 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Kan,

Well it is not history for the final beast has not yet devoured & trampled the other kingdoms, & the final beast has not yet been destroyed. When that happens, then the other beasts, kingdoms will have their dominion taken, but still keep going. That is all yet to happen.

Marilyn.

I did not say the last beast is history, but added "and we have one to end." There is one more which will last until the Kingdom of God.

Rome already trampled all over the other kingdoms in ancient times, that is history, and old Rome has fallen, but the worst part of it - the blasphemous little horn is still alive and well. Daniel says that the little horn carries on right until the end. If you are waiting for a great kingdom to wipe out all other kingdoms, you'll be waiting for a long time, because it won't happen. To begin with, the toes are all different kingdoms reigning until the Kingdom of God. Also John saw three beasts all living in modern times. There won't be a single kingdom, but the world will be united, and this unity is represented by the red beast which carries a wicked woman or church.

We are living in those days, when the whole world wonders after the beast that had the deadly wound and was healed. The Papacy fell from direct political rule at the end of its 1260 year reign as predicted by Daniel and John, and has healed from that, and now it rules over all the governments/kings of the world. For new Bible readers, see Revelation chapters 17 and 18, how it all ends.

It is this little horn power which is behind the persecuting of the saints and has planned to wipe them out soon, through the implementation of its mark- "the mark of the beast." It will do that by gaining the full support of the world to its demands.

You have presented the concept that the fourth beast destroys the other three, in the last days, and then it is destroyed, and then the other three keep going. That does not sound much like the destruction described by Daniel, if the three previous kingdoms are able to survive that.

The book of Daniel is dealing with the dominion of certain kingdoms, not so much their physical destruction.

Rome went after rule, and although she was prepared to crush, burn and bury, she preferred an immediate defeat and surrender, in order to retain the goods and ground. The first three Kingdoms had world dominion, and the fourth had the same. But the fourth has an unusual and different dominion, or in another manner, through the little horn on its head, which lasts until the end of time.

If the fourth kingdom is Rome, then how does Rome crush Persia, Babylon and Greece in the last days, when there is nothing left of Rome except the little horn?

Either way, you can't dismiss the reign of the Papacy as the Antichrist for the period of 1260 years from 538 AD to 1798 AD, which is the driving motive behind all these theories of futurism and so forth.

Unless there is a clear understanding of the past the future will not be revealed.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi douggg,

That`s fine bro. We are all discussing here. Now glad you said that none of those kingdoms (Babylon, Medes & Persians, Greece etc) exist any more. God`s word tells us very clearly concerning Babylon for example -

`God has numbered your kingdom, & finished it.` (Dan. 5: 26)

A kingdom comprises - a king, a government, an army & the people. These have all gone concerning the Babylonian kingdom. So when God says -

`as for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season & a time.` (Dan. 7: 12)

These beast kingdoms had their dominion taken away after the final beast is destroyed. God refers to them as a kingdom, not just people who over 2000 years later are on the land. To have their dominion taken away in the time of the final beast shows very clearly that these beasts are NOT ancient kingdoms but contemporary with the final world ruler.

Marilyn.

 

 

Hi Marilyn, the other three kingdoms in existence again is going to be pretty hard to do since their territories layered one over the other,  because they conquered one another.     That's why I think it is the people living at the time of the Lord's return occupying the territories once held collectively by those kingdoms - which over time have developed into the modern nations.   Jesus is going to rule the world with a rod of iron - so that dictators like Saddam Hussein are not going to rise up and abuse the people.... the nations won't have sovereign dominion.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi douggg,

On to the next part of your comments. Counting -

1st beast, 2nd, beast, 3rd beast, 4th beast, and the last one is destroyed. 4 beasts, yet you are talking about 5 kingdoms. Do you have scriptures to support your thoughts? Otherwise it is just someone`s idea of God`s symbols.

I will say that I do believe the EU has a big role in the final Global Government, which is substantiated from scripture. (A topic in its self) However I don`t see the EU treading down the other kingdoms, plus being `dreadful & terrible. exceedingly strong.....devouring & breaking....trampling...& different from all the beasts....` (Dan. 7: 7)  

Marilyn.

 

 

Well, I think I am talking about four kingdoms (empires), with the fourth having an end times version - which there are no end times versions of the other three.

Yes, I have scriptures.   It is four beasts in Daniel 7.    But four metals (gold, silver, brass, iron) in Daniel 2.

The fourth metal iron represents the ancient Roman Empire.   The end times version will be iron but mixed with clay, as some parts of it weak like clay... the nations making up the EU like Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Italy, weak.... nations like France, England, Germany, strong.    We don't have the ten leader form of federalized government in place yet (the ten toes), but when that happens it will certainly cement what I believe.

In Daniel 9:26-27, the prince who shall come will be from the people who destroyed the temple and the city - the Romans.     Which the center of power of the ancient Roman Empire is now within the EU.... which has it's roots formed by the treaty of Rome.

Daniel 7:7 is talking about the ancient Roman Empire trampling over the people in the various territories once held (layered) by the other three kingdoms.   We haven't had any empire supercede the Roman Empire in gaining control over those (layered) three kingdoms territories, since.

In the end times, the end times version of the Roman Empire, the EU, will, with 42 months left before Jesus returns, have taken control over the same territories, following Gog/Magog, as indicated by the composite body of the beast in Revelation 13:2.

In Daniel 8:9 the little horn waxes strong from one of the former break up kingdoms of Alexander's Greek empire.   Again, we have to look at it from a territory standpoint, since all of those breakup kingdoms are long gone.    Which to come from a direction north and west of Israel - it has to be Greece.   Which, like Rome, Greece is within the EU.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2016 by douggg