Understanding the Final One Seven

[Last Daze]

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Because the Hebrew word used for confirm is gabar/1396 and means to Be strong, by implication to Prevail, or to Act Insolently. So this "Confirmed" actually means this Man of Sin/Beast/Anti-Christ forces an agreement on Israel, and he does so in a pompous, insolent manner. The same man that forces the agreement, breaks the agreement. After Satan is cast out of Heaven and possesses the Anti-Christ. We know this is the trigger, for Revelation 13 says he was given power to overcome the Saints for 42 months. 

 

God Bless

You're saying the covenant is "forced on Israel" for 3.5 years then broken?  The prophecy says it is confirmed/strengthened for seven years.  It can't be confirmed for seven years if its only confirmed for 3.5.

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

You're saying the covenant is "forced on Israel" for 3.5 years then broken?  The prophecy says it is confirmed/strengthened for seven years.  It can't be confirmed for seven years if its only confirmed for 3.5.

It can be like marriage vows.  Both parties agree to them (until death do us part or in this case just 7 years), yet there is divorce, the marriage vows are broken and there is separation.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Last Daze]

4 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

It can be like marriage vows.  Both parties agree to them (until death do us part or in this case just 7 years), yet there is divorce, the marriage vows are broken and there is separation.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

No.  No, its not like that.

[Montana Marv]

5 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

No.  No, its not like that.

Or is like a "Shot Gun Wedding"  Force is involved between parties to make a decision.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

You're saying the covenant is "forced on Israel" for 3.5 years then broken?  The prophecy says it is confirmed/strengthened for seven years.  It can't be confirmed for seven years if its only confirmed for 3.5.

Yes sir, look at all the pressure on Israel today, from all over. That is what Zechariah chapter 12 means, she is a stumbling block to all the nations a burdensome stone a trembling cup, all these nations are going to try and force a Palestinian/Jerusalem deal. This Anti-Christ will force this deal on Israel, he will act towards Israel kind of like Obama has, but worse. Remember, this guy will be very powerful, and trade with Europe/world is a must for Israel. I think America cause an worldwide economic collapse, and this man steps in knowing dark sentences (able to solve riddles and conundrums) and pulls the world out of chaos, all except the USA which must diminish, sadly.

 

To prevail or act insolently is also the root words as well as to be strong.  Seems to indicate he will force a deal upon Israel through shrewd tactics.  I think the cast down Satan, possesses the Anti-Christ with 42 months left. Rev. 13. He was given 42 months to overcome the Saints.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On April 5, 2016 at 10:35 AM, Serving said:

CORRECT.

If One confirms the covenant for the whole week but is cut off (killed) in the midst of that same week, then WHAT is that telling us?

"If" is a good supposition with which to begin.

It is a fact that concordances only define the way a word has been translated.  With that said, it is funny that we still live with a particularly odd translation of gabar going from to prevail to to confirm.  There is a specific Hebrew word which does mean to confirm, and another which can be translated that way, but Gabriel uses neither.

Allow me to use gabar as confirm for a moment.  What specific covenant from God did Jesus "strengthen?"  How did He "confirm" it?  When did He do this at the beginning of His First Advent?  What terms did He use to define the two parts of a covenant; the responsibilities of the respective parties?  How was the covenant sealed?  Where is the confirmation in chapter and verse?

[Serving]

2 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

"If" is a good supposition with which to begin.

It is a fact that concordances only define the way a word has been translated.  With that said, it is funny that we still live with a particularly odd translation of gabar going from to prevail to to confirm.  There is a specific Hebrew word which does mean to confirm, and another which can be translated that way, but Gabriel uses neither.

Allow me to use gabar as confirm for a moment.  What specific covenant from God did Jesus "strengthen?"  How did He "confirm" it?  When did He do this at the beginning of His First Advent?  What terms did He use to define the two parts of a covenant; the responsibilities of the respective parties?  How was the covenant sealed?  Where is the confirmation in chapter and verse?

Hi Marcus,

Are you questioning me in regards to Daniel 9?

Are you asking me to show how Daniel 9 is speaking of the messiah confirming the covenant (as i believe) opposed to it being the false prophet? (as others believe)?

Is this where you are coming from is it?

[Serving]

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

"If" is a good supposition with which to begin.

It is a fact that concordances only define the way a word has been translated.  With that said, it is funny that we still live with a particularly odd translation of gabar going from to prevail to to confirm.  There is a specific Hebrew word which does mean to confirm, and another which can be translated that way, but Gabriel uses neither.

Allow me to use gabar as confirm for a moment.  What specific covenant from God did Jesus "strengthen?"  How did He "confirm" it?  When did He do this at the beginning of His First Advent?  What terms did He use to define the two parts of a covenant; the responsibilities of the respective parties?  How was the covenant sealed?  Where is the confirmation in chapter and verse?

Oops, sorry Marcus, I was distracted earlier .. perhaps this brief explanation I gave in another post earlier today best addresses your questions when taking into consideration all other relevant Old and New Testament scriptures the below conjures up :

Quote

Hi Sister,

I was going to do a more detailed response with other scriptures to you but decided to just get to the point and then let you join all the dots in those scriptures I posted and then other scriptures besides .. and what I was ultimately leading to was to do with this : 

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I know we already agree that this speaks of Messiah so to cut to the chase I'll now "spit it out" .. the reason Christ was crucified in the midst of the week had to do with the covenant He was FULFILLING .. meaning .. before Christ could confirm the New Covenant, He must first, by the requirements required of Messiah within the first covenant, had to confirm this was indeed He :   Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. .. because before he could confirm the 2nd (new) covenant, He first had to confirm the 1st covenants requirements of being Messiah Himself .. which He did whilst Himself observing the Law during His earthly ministry along with signs & miracles following.

And seeing that during the first half of that week the 2nd covenant was not in effect (the testament is only in force AFTER the testator dies), then He could in no way be confirming the new covenant during the 1st half of the week, thus by necessity then, the 2nd half of that week dealt with confirming the now FULFILLED covenant through the New Covenant itself, which covenant is the promises made to the father's come to life .. seeing He did not come to destroy the law & the prophets but to FULFIL.

So the first half of the week was confirming the 1st covenant, and the 2nd half of the week dealt with the fulfilled (1st) covenant come to life seen here :    By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;  .. being of course, the 2nd (new) covenant itself. 

Which to me, better explains HOW this :

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Most certainly speaks of this :

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Which more precisely explains the WHY behind this:

shall Messiah be cut off, and in the midst of the week

Regards.

Cheers.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

18 hours ago, Serving said:

I know we already agree that this speaks of Messiah so to cut to the chase I'll now "spit it out" .. the reason Christ was crucified in the midst of the week had to do with the covenant He was FULFILLING .. meaning .. before Christ could confirm the New Covenant, He must first, by the requirements required of Messiah within the first covenant, had to confirm this was indeed He :   Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. .. because before he could confirm the 2nd (new) covenant, He first had to confirm the 1st covenants requirements of being Messiah Himself .. which He did whilst Himself observing the Law during His earthly ministry along with signs & miracles following.

1.  Well I don't agree with this assessment of yours.

2. Are you saying God's plan for Salvation was the abominations, or the desolation?

3. Fulfilling and confirming are two totally actions.

confirm.  verb (used with object)
1. to establish the truth, accuracy, validity, or genuineness of; corroborate; verify:
.....This report confirms my suspicions.
2. to acknowledge with definite assurance:
.....Did the hotel confirm our room reservation?
3. to make valid or binding by some formal or legal act; sanction; ratify:
.....to confirm a treaty; to confirm her appointment to the Supreme Court.
4. to make firm or more firm; add strength to; settle or establish firmly:
.....Their support confirmed my determination to run for mayor.
5. to strengthen (a person) in habit, resolution, opinion, etc.:
.....The accident confirmed him in his fear of driving.
6. to administer the religious rite of confirmation to

fulfill.  verb (used with object)
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise. 
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
3. to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.):
.....a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
4. to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time:
.....He felt that life was over when one had fulfilled his threescore years and ten.
5. to develop the full potential of (usually used reflexively):
.....She realized that she could never fulfill herself in such work.

4. Now, exactly what did Jesus do to "confirm" (and that is not what gabar means) a covenant with many?  Please stay within standard denotation for what is to confirm a covenant - which is not God's set of conditions, nor His promises, nor prophecy: a covenant.  I ask because even with the KJV translation of gabar, which as a verb means: to prevail as to confirm - I'm still trying to nail down exactly what those who say 'Jesus confirmed a covenant:' actually was.

5. Exactly which Covenant did Jesus confirm?  You say the 1st, but there is more than one.  
- Do you mean the one with Noah?
- Or is it the Covenant that God made with Abraham?
- Or is it the Covenant that God made with David?

6. Since this covenant is only "confirmed" for seven years: - When did the New Covenant (you point to as Jesus making:) expire?

7. (Extra credit, because you didn't get there yet:) Upon whom were God's desolations poured out after Jesus was either the abomination or the desolation?

Edited June 21, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 6/20/2016 at 3:30 AM, Serving said:

And seeing that during the first half of that week the 2nd covenant was not in effect (the testament is only in force AFTER the testator dies), then He could in no way be confirming the new covenant during the 1st half of the week, thus by necessity then, the 2nd half of that week dealt with confirming the now FULFILLED covenant through the New Covenant itself, which covenant is the promises made to the father's come to life .. seeing He did not come to destroy the law & the prophets but to FULFIL.

I am really having some problems understanding your language here.

Now, I understand that you feel that Jesus confirmed the 1st (undefined) covenant - starting the one 'seven' coincidental with His Ministry - and is not "confirming" the New Testament during that time.

However, you draw a conclusion when you say: "this by necessity then," - which puzzles me because it seems a leap of logic past any historical perspective that for three and a half years after Jesus was crucified, buried, raised, and ascended - that He could have been "confirming" the New Covenant He made at the Last Supper and sealed with His own shed Blood on the cross - even after He ascended to Heaven as portrayed in Acts 1:11 - and then abruptly stop doing so.

The period in time that Jesus was on the earth was only days.  We have several witnesses to His Being present on the earth after His Resurrection and before His Ascension, but He ascended to Heaven in Acts 1:11 before the Festival of Firstfruits or Pentecost, which happens 50 days after the same Passover on which He was crucified.

Even if I try to say that Jesus continued to "confirm" the New Covenant for three and a half years, that is NOT the same covenant you said He "confirmed" at the start of His Ministry, and the language of Daniel 9:27 does not allow for multiple or plural covenants, but a covenant.

So how could Jesus be "confirming" the 1st covenant (which I'm still trying to understand which covenant God made in the OT you mean) AFTER making the New Covenant?

And how and when did that end?

The end of the one 'seven' in Daniel 9:27 has the desolations that have been decreed, first mentioned in v.26 as then being "poured out" (how apt a description for the Bowl Judgments) on the desolator.  You leave this out.  I cannot see how this can possibly fit into your take on Jesus being the actor to begin the one 'seven'.

So I would like to hear how you deal with these internal inconsistencies in your exegesis of Daniel 9:27.