Guest Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 38 minutes ago, Paradigm said: Yes SS, I was going to mention this earlier, but didn't have time. The Al-Aqsa mosque has been there on what most say is the Temple Mount for a long time. It was actually destroyed by an earthquake and rebuilt. So, depending upon if you start at the first mosque or reconstructed one or dedication, the thing has been there for around 1200-1300 years or so. Of course there are other ones there too. Daniel 12:11-12 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Therefore after the destruction of Herod's Temple there is evidence that a Temple to Jupiter was built there on that place. Jupiter of course is basically the same as Zeus. Previously during the time of the Maccabees the temple had been renamed for Zeus. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is the context of the questions asked in Matthew 24? When will these things happen? What will be the sign of your coming? And of the end of the age? What prompted the disciples to ask those questions and ask them at that time? Because Y'shua just told them that the temple was going to be destroyed. The was the main thing on their minds. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matthew 24:1-4 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Luke 21:5-7 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark 13:1-5 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? 5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Therefore to recap: Historical evidence shows that a temple to jupiter was erected on the Temple Mount. Later a temple to allah and other structures were placed there and have been there pretty much ever since then. Mathew, Mark and Luke place the important discussion in the Temple area and a discussion about the destruction of the Temple was the thing that the disciples were most focused upon. That was their first question. That question and the context of that question is recorded in all three accounts. Also two false Messiahs were proclaimed. The first Simon Ben Giora, then the latter bar kochba revolt. Both minted coins making boasting proclamations, and images concerning themselves and the temple. So many never think to consider these Images and proclamations as being a fulfillment. As these were things that were actually seen, and proclaimed. Siman ben Giora even said of God....to neither aide him nor hinder him....in short he neither acknowledged to need Gods approval nor want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorL Posted April 5, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Greetings WilliamL, 6 hours ago, WilliamL said: The Matthew account records Jesus' answer to the question, "What shall be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?" Matt. 24:3 The Luke account records Jesus' answer to the question, "When shall these things be [that the stones of the Temple shall all be cast down]?" Luke 21:6-7 Two different questions for two different events: the Matthew prophecy for the End Times, the Luke prophecy for 70 AD. Matthew’s account is also speaking of AD 70: Matthew 24:1-3: And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? The abomination that desolated Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70 was the Roman army. Matthew's and Luke's records are parallel, recording the same conversation of Jesus. Luke's record locks in when the believers were to flee Jerusalem. There will be mainly Jews and Arabs in Jerusalem when the future King of the North invades Jerusalem at the time of the end. The words of Jesus in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 were not particularly directed to these Jews and Arabs. Kind regards Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted April 5, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 142 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 165 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/26/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted April 5, 2016 1 hour ago, Joline said: Also two false Messiahs were proclaimed. The first Simon Ben Giora, then the latter bar kochba revolt. Both minted coins making boasting proclamations, and images concerning themselves and the temple. So many never think to consider these Images and proclamations as being a fulfillment. As these were things that were actually seen, and proclaimed. Siman ben Giora even said of God....to neither aide him nor hinder him....in short he neither acknowledged to need Gods approval nor want it. Good points Joline. Yes, from what I understand there were many proclaimed Messiah in that late first Century and early second with the most famous being Bar Kokhba. The points that you make underscore the importance of studying history. Most people view a passage such as Matthew 24 from 2016 viewpoint forward paying no attention to the context. The passage begins discussing the destruction of the Temple and quickly discusses coming false messiahs. Again, usually those passages are viewed not only as being all future, but being fulfilled in a mere 3 1/2 or 7 years. The subject matter dealt with in the passage covers a very large span of time. It is the same when Revelation is discussed. Most see the book as being all in the future or all fulfilled around 70 ad or so. Again, the subject matter of Revelation covers a vast amount of time. Unfortunately most of us have been so influenced by novels and such that we often miss the plain black and white context. Additionally, the language, especially religious terms are so leavened that it makes it very difficult for people to ever move beyond inherited paradigms. Most current religious words are either absent from scripture all together or they are used in a way in the modern age that is foreign to the way they are used in scripture. For example, the word antichrist and its usage now. Another example are words or phrases such as "last days." Most see the "last days" as a short, future time period. However, we have been in the "last days" for at least around 2.000 years. People have typically viewed the subject of prophecy in a very myopic way rather than through a more panoramic lens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted April 5, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 5, 2016 1 hour ago, Joline said: Also two false Messiahs were proclaimed. The first Simon Ben Giora, then the latter bar kochba revolt. Both minted coins making boasting proclamations, and images concerning themselves and the temple. So many never think to consider these Images and proclamations as being a fulfillment. As these were things that were actually seen, and proclaimed. Siman ben Giora even said of God....to neither aide him nor hinder him....in short he neither acknowledged to need Gods approval nor want it. Bar Giora was not considered to be the Messiah. Giora was actually prevented by the Jewish people from entering Jerusalem initially until a split within Jewish factions when one side allowed him in to help defeat the other side. Bar Kokhba was considered to be the Messiah by a very famous Jewish leader of that time called Akiva. Bar Kokhba was actually named Simon bar Koseva but was given the nickname of bar Kokhba by Rabbi Akiva. Bar Kokhba means 'Son of the Star' which was a Messianic reference. Bar Kokhba defeated the Roman army and Israel gained independence for about 3 years, when the Romans defeated bar Kokhba and took Israel again. After the defeat, the Jewish people were banned from Jerusalem. Bar Kokhba was given a new nickname of bar Koseba which means 'son of lies'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted April 5, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,117 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,554 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted April 5, 2016 2 hours ago, TrevorL said: Matthew’s account is also speaking of AD 70: Matthew 24:1-3: And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? The abomination that desolated Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70 was the Roman army. Matthew's and Luke's records are parallel, recording the same conversation of Jesus. No, Matthew is not speaking of 70 AD. The accounts are not parallel, they are overlapping. Some parts of each account were exclusive to that account. Neither Luke nor Matthew understood when the answers to the two questions would apply-- one answer imminently to come, the other answer farther off than either could imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINNERSAVED Posted April 5, 2016 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 6 Topic Count: 150 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,195 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 2,409 Days Won: 14 Joined: 07/30/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 5, 2016 2 hours ago, Paradigm said: Good points Joline. Yes, from what I understand there were many proclaimed Messiah in that late first Century and early second with the most famous being Bar Kokhba. The points that you make underscore the importance of studying history. Most people view a passage such as Matthew 24 from 2016 viewpoint forward paying no attention to the context. The passage begins discussing the destruction of the Temple and quickly discusses coming false messiahs. Again, usually those passages are viewed not only as being all future, but being fulfilled in a mere 3 1/2 or 7 years. The subject matter dealt with in the passage covers a very large span of time. It is the same when Revelation is discussed. Most see the book as being all in the future or all fulfilled around 70 ad or so. Again, the subject matter of Revelation covers a vast amount of time. Unfortunately most of us have been so influenced by novels and such that we often miss the plain black and white context. Additionally, the language, especially religious terms are so leavened that it makes it very difficult for people to ever move beyond inherited paradigms. Most current religious words are either absent from scripture all together or they are used in a way in the modern age that is foreign to the way they are used in scripture. For example, the word antichrist and its usage now. Another example are words or phrases such as "last days." Most see the "last days" as a short, future time period. However, we have been in the "last days" for at least around 2.000 years. People have typically viewed the subject of prophecy in a very myopic way rather than through a more panoramic lens. thank you everyone, this is great information that we do not get a chance to understand in the break down of the scriptures, as they are not for the normal new person, in American eyes, and we can see , that there is much history and events that may don't, even know that, has taken place and so I know we see a lot that many are trying to put into today and future and its been already completed , and so every one searches the scriptures for the answers , when we need to let the Holy spirit guide us, and to show and reveal , what we need to know, for even in the books, of Daniel and in John they are saying to seal up the books until its appointed times, Gods power and wisdom., far exceeds the mind set we have, and its great to see the brothers and the sisters to come out and help others with history lessons to help show what scripture tells , us blessings to you brothers and sisters and be blessed, peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINNERSAVED Posted April 6, 2016 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 6 Topic Count: 150 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,195 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 2,409 Days Won: 14 Joined: 07/30/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 6, 2016 34 minutes ago, WilliamL said: No, Matthew is not speaking of 70 AD. The accounts are not parallel, they are overlapping. Some parts of each account were exclusive to that account. Neither Luke nor Matthew understood when the answers to the two questions would apply-- one answer imminently to come, the other answer farther off than either could imagine. So William my question to you is, that we have three scriptures in three books matthew ,mark and luke, how do these three , go together, or separate as far as the past to the future, so I can understand what is going on here, from matthew 24, or 25 and mark 13 15, and luke 21 20 , they are all talking a close relation of the same event , but the times I know have a different focus, thank you for your time, brother, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted April 6, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 142 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 165 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/26/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted April 6, 2016 1 hour ago, SINNERSAVED said: thank you everyone, this is great information that we do not get a chance to understand in the break down of the scriptures, as they are not for the normal new person, in American eyes, and we can see , that there is much history and events that may don't, even know that, has taken place and so I know we see a lot that many are trying to put into today and future and its been already completed , and so every one searches the scriptures for the answers , when we need to let the Holy spirit guide us, and to show and reveal , what we need to know, for even in the books, of Daniel and in John they are saying to seal up the books until its appointed times, Gods power and wisdom., far exceeds the mind set we have, and its great to see the brothers and the sisters to come out and help others with history lessons to help show what scripture tells , us blessings to you brothers and sisters and be blessed, peace Thanks to you SS. I feel a little strange saying "thanks SS" by the way, but I don't want to call you "sinner" for short either. Maybe I can just call you "Saved." You are correct about history. I don't feel like I know very much history, but I know the more of it I learn it really does have an impact on how that you see things. A lot of it is very dark. Lots of junk in there that many would probably prefer not to know. I find it fascinating when I discover little pieces of what and how things got us to this point. Some years ago as I began to learn more about how we ended up with certain beliefs that we have today, I began to really doubt much or all of what I had been taught. I went through a difficult dismantling process of unlearning things that I had been taught. As I began to realize that so much error existed in so many different subjects, I began to question prophecy teachings. Up until that point, I felt that I had a pretty good handle on things. If that me were typing now, most of the people discussing these subjects would agree with me on most subjects. I would pretty much be in lock step with the mainstream in so many ways. However.... as I began to question various beliefs and ways of arriving at them, I found that so much of it was built upon sand. As it has been said, if a lie is repeated enough times it becomes the truth. Or at least be is thought of as truth to most. I decided that I wanted truth, even if it put me at odds with everyone else. I began to as fearlessly as possible, seek the unadulterated, objective truth rather than the comfortable and the familiar. I mean, how could the Messiah's coming be as a thief to most for any causal observer who has seen "Left Behind" or read some prophecy book? The Messiah's coming will come as a thief to most because we have inherited so many lies. Even if we didn't personally create the lies, we have a choice of whether we love them or not and choose to hide in their shadow and perpetuate them. Revelation 22:14-15 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Once we begin to love truth enough, that we are willing to turn our backs on our favorite lies, we are ready to begin the dismantling process stripping away the years of layers. Where once there were exclamation marks everywhere, now there are much fewer of them. We find question marks have taken most of their places. The power of suggestion and paradigm precedents are powerful. Be the first with a new product or idea and you can become a generic. "Would anyone like a coke?" Anyone have any Windex that I could use." "Can you make a Xerox copy of this for me." Sometimes, and often it is just a matter of bad logic. However, the older the bad logic is, the more powerful it is and is very difficult to dismantle. For example: There were these three guys that rented a hotel room. (Nothing gay here, it is just an old riddle) The clerk said that the room is $30.00. Each guy pitched in a $10 and paid for the room. Later, the manager showed up and told the clerk that he had overcharged the men. He said that the room was only $25.00. He handed the clerk 5 ones and told him to give the men their money back. The clerk wasn't sure what to do so he stuck 2 dollars in his pocket and then gave the men $1.00 each. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now, the men originally paid $10 dollars a piece for the room The clerk gave them each a dollar back, so now they all only paid $9.00 each for the room. $9.00 x 3 = $27.00 The clerk put $2.00 in his pocket. $27.00 + 2 = $29.00 Where is the missing dollar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorL Posted April 6, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted April 6, 2016 Greetings again WilliamL, 2 hours ago, WilliamL said: No, Matthew is not speaking of 70 AD. The accounts are not parallel, they are overlapping. Some parts of each account were exclusive to that account. Neither Luke nor Matthew understood when the answers to the two questions would apply-- one answer imminently to come, the other answer farther off than either could imagine. Are you suggesting all of the following in Matthew applies to the future, while that of Luke applies to AD 70? Matthew 24: 15-20 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Luke 21: 20-24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Kind regards Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted April 6, 2016 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted April 6, 2016 One of the keys to understanding Biblical prophecy is the fact that many prophecies are dual in nature. Many Biblical prophecies have both a short-term and long-term fulfillment (types and antitypes). The type is usually a relatively minor event in history. The antitype symbolizes a major, often eschatological (eschatology is a branch of Christian and Jewish theology concerning death, the end of the world, or the ultimate destiny of humankind) event that will occur later. One of the best examples of dual fulfillment in prophecy is the Olivet Prophecy recorded in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke. Events such as the siege of Jerusalem, Antiochus Epiphanes’ sacrifice of a pig on the altar (the Abomination of Desolation) and the destruction of the Second Temple by Titus Flavius are seen as only partial fulfillments of the Olivet Prophecy (which is also predicted in the Book of Daniel). We can clearly see that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was a type of the Great Tribulation which will occur in the time immediately preceding the Second Coming of Yeshua Ha’Mashiach (Jesus Christ). Yeshua was actually predicting that the Abomination of Desolation which occurred under Antiochus Epiphanes in which he pronounced himself to be God and defiled the Holy Temple (which when corrected by the Maccabean Revolt resulting in the celebration known as Hanukkah) would occur again during the time of the final Antichrist. Yeshua actually prophesied two events in the Olivet Prophecy. Jerusalem’s destruction was the type, and the Great Tribulation is the antitype. This particular prophecy highlights how vital it is to understand the principles of duality in Biblical prophecy. Many early followers of Yeshua did not understand that the Olivet Prophecy was dual and fully expected that Yeshua’s Second Coming would occur after the destruction of Jerusalem. When Yeshua failed to return at that time, some were very disappointed and disillusioned. Some even lost their faith and stopped believing. This disappointment was a major factor in causing the congregations to fall into apostasy in the closing decades of the first century. https://sounddoctrineministries.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/the-dual-fulfillment-of-prophecy/ I Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." "Ensamples" in the manuscripts is the Greek word "tupos", number 5179 in the Strong's Greek dictionary. "a sample, or type; i.e. a model for imitation, a fashion, for manner, or form." So Paul is telling us that those things that we read about in the Old Testament, of the events of the prophets of old are examples of what we should be looking for in our day. This is written to alert all people to be aware of how it shall be before Christ returns. What was written in the Exodus, or in Amos is written as examples for our admonition or warning. All of the Scriptures is given as a warning to those who are living in the times of the ends of this world age of the flesh. We will see the end of the flesh age come to a close, and there are many things that will come to pass right before our eyes that were written about in detail way back in the Old Testament time, and Paul is telling you and I to wake up to those warnings. Each of the events that took place, the opening of the Red sea, the building of the false religious forms, and so on. God is telling us "look little children that is what is going to happen to you at the close of this earth age". We are living in that age, and these things are happening now. Can you learn by this? It is so simple. God did not leave us helpless nor hopeless in these end times, and that is why we must become skilled in all of His Word. It is all an example of what is going to befall us in our generation. http://www.theseason.org/1corin/1corin10.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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