Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Guest]

So, if you fall out with your father, you stop being his son? You no longer are his blood? What you say doesn't make sense and isn't true. I have posted many verses throughout these forums that prove OSAS, which I assume you have read before. I don't get into debates with people who want to believe that GOD doesn't know everything, that HE would give salvation to someone HE knows will later "give it back;" or that Christ's sacrifice on the Cross was not sufficient to save - that you have to do something in order to complete the process. That, to me, makes me wonder if GOD will accept such a limitation of faith as total faith in the Saving Grace of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. I sure hope so, for doubters' sake.

[Behold]

56 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Yeah, the bible says no such thing. Your cited 'perfect example' tells us a person can indeed lose it all. The son had all his father owned and gave it up for earthly pleasures. The father of the prodigal son considered his son dead. That means no place in his father's house, so the son lost it all. Of course the son repented and was joyously accepted back in the fold.

You ignore the fact the son did lose everything, after he had everything, and would have stayed dead to his father's house, unless he returned with repentance.

I would ask that you post the most convincing scripture you can find supporting OSAS to back up this claim. 

The only thing that can keep you out of heaven is "dying in your sins"......As its sin that disconnect you from God.

So, God became a man, died on a Cross, and reconnects all believers back to Himself by personally sacrificing Himself for their SIN.

So, with Sin all gone, all PAID FOR by God, who was JUDGED FOR ALL OUR SINS ON THE CROSS =  Heaven is the only eternity a Believer will ever experience.

DONE DEAL.

OR, "IT IS FINISHED", AS JESUS SAID FROM THE CROSS = ABOUT OUR SALVATION.

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

So, if you fall out with your father, you stop being his son? You no longer are his blood? What you say doesn't make sense and isn't true. I have posted many verses throughout these forums that prove OSAS, which I assume you have read before. I don't get into debates with people who want to believe that GOD doesn't know everything, that HE would give salvation to someone HE knows will later "give it back;" or that Christ's sacrifice on the Cross was not sufficient to save - that you have to do something in order to complete the process. That, to me, makes me wonder if GOD will accept such a limitation of faith as total faith in the Saving Grace of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. I sure hope so, for doubters' sake.

I have not read any post by you on OSAS.  I have however read a good deal about it. So many verses contradict this teaching it's a wonder the whole thing hasn't been abandoned.

I know this isn't the thread for this but I'm going ahead any way. It's not what I say that doesn't make sense to you, it's the bible that doesn't make sense to you.

The father in the parable says twice that his son was dead and lost.

Luke 15

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

That means the son had no part in his fathers house by the sons own lips.

Luke 15

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

The son didn't merely 'fall out of favor', he was dead and lost as the father said, twice. 

 

I would ask you to stop putting words in my mouth. Your assumptions are false. 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Behold said:

The only thing that can keep you out of heaven is "dying in your sins"......As its sin that disconnect you from God.

So, God became a man, died on a Cross, and reconnects all believers back to Himself by personally sacrificing Himself for their SIN.

So, with Sin all gone, all PAID FOR by God, who was JUDGED FOR ALL OUR SINS ON THE CROSS =  Heaven is the only eternity a Believer will ever experience.

DONE DEAL.

OR, "IT IS FINISHED", AS JESUS SAID FROM THE CROSS = ABOUT OUR SALVATION.

How does this prove a thing? Got scripture to back it up?

[Behold]

1 minute ago, Diaste said:

How does this prove a thing? Got scripture to back it up?

Yep, used a few in the post.

Try reading it.

[PatrolMan]

I appreciate your comment but there just isn't the space to show you where you are very very wrong and confused. We will just have to agree to disagree. I have studied and researched this topic for a very long and with many minters, pastors. Have a nice day and I respect your opinion.

[RustyAngeL]

On 5/20/2016 at 10:36 AM, ZacharyB said:

 

If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return Christ, you will see …

the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be gathered at His second coming …

at the end of the tribulation … and NOT at some secret return before His second coming!

Unfortunately, it would take too many pages to fully quote all of the Scripture references.

 

Matthew 24:21-31 • Might as well get the most obvious proof out of the way first

Parallel passages are in Mark 13 and Luke 21.

 

There are only 2 Resurrections • But the pre-tribulation doctrine teaches

3 resurrections

John 5:28-29 … Luke 14:14 … Acts 24:15 … Daniel 12:2 ↓

•  These 4 passages clearly state that there are 2 resurrections, which are:

the resurrection of life for the good & just, and the resurrection of

condemnation for the evil & unjust.

Revelation 20:4-12 ↓

•  This passage clearly states that there are 2 resurrections separated by 1000 years.

The first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) is for Christians -- non-Christians are raised 1000 years later.

Now, exactly WHEN the resurrection of Christians occurs is shown below …

 

The Last Trumpet • The resurrection of ALL dead Christians is at the LAST trumpet

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 … 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ↓

•  These 2 passages describe the resurrection of ALL dead Christians. They also say Christians

who are alive on earth will be “changed” and will meet the resurrected ones “in the clouds”.

And 1 Corinthians 15:51 says this will happen at the LAST trumpet.

•  The pre-tribulation doctrine teaches that Christians living in the last generation

will be changed into an eternal state at the beginning of the tribulation period.

If the dead Christians are resurrected at the same time as the pre-tribulation rapture,

how can these so-called tribulation saints be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?

It’s impossible … because there are only 2 resurrections: 1 for Christians, and 1 for the lost.

However, pre-tribulation doctrine falsely teaches 3 resurrections: 2 for Christians, and 1 for the lost.

 

The firstfruits • Only Jesus is the firstfruits

1 Corinthians 15:23 ↓

•  This verse clearly states that Jesus is the “firstfruits” …

but the pre-tribulation doctrine teaches that the raptured saints are the firstfruits!

Also, “the dead in Christ” (1 Thessalonians 4:17) refers to the group of ALL the dead in Christ.

So, how could this main harvest be considered merely the “firstfruits”?

Jesus returns at His second coming at the end of the tribulation period.

There will be Christians alive at that time.

But, Scripture says ALL dead Christians will be resurrected from the dead, and then …

the Christians who are alive shall be caught up together with them (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

The Last Day • Raptured on the last day before the tribulation starts? … lol

John 6:39-54 ↓

•  4 times in these verses, Jesus clearly says the dead believers will be raised up on the LAST day!

How can the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine have the dead in Christ rising first (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

followed by a rapture … if this rapture occurs 7 years before the last day?

Just how many occurrences of “the last day” are there?

•  All 4 gospels have references to a trumpet, and all occur in connection with the end of the tribulation and the resurrection of believers!  This is especially obvious in Matthew 24.

In Revelation, there are 7 consecutive trumpets encompassing the entire tribulation period,

with the last trumpet obviously coming at the very end.

•  The pre-trib doctrine says the dead Christians meet the Lord in the air

(joined with the living Christians) before the tribulation period …

unsurmountable problems with the last day and the last trumpet.

 

The Elect • Please refer to Matthew 24:21-31 above

•  The pre-trib doctrine says “His elect” is some group of Jewish believers! 

But, this is absurd because:

-- Paul refers to the Jews as “Israel”, and the believers in Christ as “the elect” (Romans 11:7)

-- writing mostly to Greek believers, Paul refers to them as “the elect of God” (Colossians 3:12-13)

 

The Days of Noah • They were similar to the times we are in today

Matthew 24:37-44 … Luke 17:26-37 … Matthew 24:28 ↓

•  In Matthew 24:39, the flood “took” all of the non-believers away (destroying them) …

and in Luke 17:37, the disciples asked, “Where, Lord?” … Where were half of all these people “taken”?

They were not asking where half of these people were “left”.  His response was like:

“Where the dead bodies are is where the eagles (vultures) gather together.”

Those “taken” are taken to destruction, to the place where the eagles (vultures) circle overhead.

“For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles (vultures) will be gathered together.” (Matthew 24:28)

•  Matthew 24:39 says that immediately preceding the flood, almost no one had any idea that

destruction was about to fall upon them … and “so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.”

Most church people are not expecting danger; they are expecting to be raptured;

they are very similar to those who “did not know until the flood came and took them all away”.

As in the days of Noah, the ones who will be “taken” away … will be taken away to destruction!

But, some believers today are like Noah (and his family) who spent 120 years building the Ark.

Some today are getting prepared to “ride it out” during the coming persecution and great tribulation.

Some today who do “know”… will remain (be “left”), while the others are “taken” to be destroyed.

•  Yes, many believers do “not know” that they will NOT be evacuated before things get really rough

… because “the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do NOT expect” (Matthew 24:44).

Noah was involved in heavy-duty preparations for the coming disaster, but many believers today

do “not know” that they will soon be facing incredible Christian persecution (even unto death).

Christians who refuse to take the mark of the beast will suffer: “no one may buy or sell” (Rev 13:17).

 

Coming upon you as a thief • This is strictly a negative event, not a positive one

Revelation 3:2-3 ↓

•  Jesus clearly warns that some believers will be IN ERROR about the timing of His return.

This group’s works are lacking … they need to repent and re-evaluate when Jesus will return.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 ↓

•  Paul is writing to those who KNOW the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

This group is “all sons of light … not of the night nor of darkness” (1 Thessalonians 5:5).

But, the other group who is of the night and darkness, exclaims: “Peace and safety!”,

and then sudden destruction will come upon them, and they shall not escape.

•  Many NT verses referring to Christ’s coming as a thief refer to His second coming at the

end of the tribulation period … because they talk about the last trumpet, the last day, etc.!

Matthew 24:43 … John 10:10 … 2 Peter 3:10 … 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3  ↓

•  We always see the thief being spoken of in a negative context, not a positive rescuing one.

Example: In 2 Peter 3:10, the Day of the Lord comes as a thief to destroy the heavens and the earth.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 ↓

•  The above clearly says Christians will be on the earth when “this Day” arrives!

And some of them will be prepared for “this Day” because they have been watching and waiting.

Some Spirit-filled teachers are saying today:  Only “the overcomers” / “the remnant” will escape

the terrible Day of the Lord (when Jesus returns) because they will be raptured just before it comes.

Revelation 16:15 ↓                                                                              

•  In this verse (and in Revelation 3:2-3) … believers are told to watch, and Christ is referred to as a thief. At this point, all 7 seal judgments have occurred, and all 7 trumpets have sounded, and at least 6 of the 7 vial judgments have been poured out.  Then, immediately preceding the battle of Armageddon, Christ says: “Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.” (Revelation 3:3)

All of this is irrefutable Scriptural proof that the thief in the night comes AFTER the tribulation!

 

The Day of the Lord • The Day of God’s wrath is at Jesus’ second coming

                                    at the end of the tribulation!

1 Thessalonians 5:2 … 2 Peter 3:10 ↓

•  Here, both Paul and Peter connect the coming of the “thief in the night” with the Day of the Lord.

•  The Day of the Lord ALWAYS speaks of the 2nd coming of Christ at the very end of the tribulation.

•  All 23 references of the Day of the Lord refer to the destructive post-trib return of Jesus Christ.

2 great examples are Isaiah 13:6-9 and 2 Peter 3:10.

Matthew 24:29-31 ↓

•  The wrath of God comes on the day of the Lord at the very end of the tribulation.

However, some believe the Day of the Lord actually begins at some fictional pre-tribulation rapture!

2 Peter 3:10 ↓

•  There is no way this verse about the Day of the Lord can be turned into a blessed rapture of the saints!

 

SUMMARY FROM SCRIPTURE re: debunking the pre-tribulation rapture

•  Matthew 24 says the elect will be gathered AFTER the tribulation period

•  There are 2 resurrections: first the good and just, then (1000 years later) the evil and unjust

•  The resurrection of ALL dead Christians is at the LAST TRUMPET on the LAST DAY

•  Jesus coming as a thief in the night is strictly a NEGATIVE EVENT, not a positive one

•  The Day of the Lord is the Day of God’s wrath at Jesus’ second coming at the end of the tribulation

    Even though Scripture teaches otherwise … Satan’s relatively new and

    extremely dangerous pre-tribulation rapture theory remains popular!

 

The worst mistake anyone can make is to assume that the pre-tribulation rapture is correct.

This disastrous error can mean the loss of BOTH of one’s lives … physical and spiritual both.

Satan is the most incredible liar and deceiver, so trust in what the Scriptures clearly say.

A lot of money has been made by ticking the ears of unsuspecting believers in the church.

But, you are responsible before Almighty God to teach the Truth about this false doctrine.

 

So basically your saying that the people that  believe in pre trib they are going to loose their salvation?  Our salvation has nothing to do with pre, mid or post trib.  It is about what Jesus did for us on the Cross. His Work, His finished work on the cross is what  gets us into Heaven.  

My friend believes that if you don't worship on Saturday your not going to Heaven.  She is always trying to shove that down peoples throat, she never speaks of Christ and salvation I don't believe her either.  Both of you miss the point, Jesus is our way to Heaven,  He said that Himself.  John 14:6

And this is not a contest.  Popular or unpopular, my eternity is secure because of Jesus and only Him.

Blessings, RustyAngeL

 

 

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, PatrolMan said:

I appreciate your comment but there just isn't the space to show you where you are very very wrong and confused. We will just have to agree to disagree. I have studied and researched this topic for a very long and with many minters, pastors. Have a nice day and I respect your opinion.

That's interesting because this is the place and there is more than enough space. This is a discussion forum and space has been provided for this.  I don't think it's right to attempt to shame by calling into question my mental state. That's never a valid argument but I welcome any effort to show me as incorrect. Please feel free.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, RustyAngeL said:

So basically your saying that the people that  believe in pre trib they are going to loose their salvation?  Our salvation has nothing to do with pre, mid or post trib.  It is about what Jesus did for us on the Cross. His Work, His finished work on the cross is what  gets us into Heaven.  

My friend believes that if you don't worship on Saturday your not going to Heaven.  She is always trying to shove that down peoples throat, she never speaks of Christ and salvation I don't believe her either.  Both of you miss the point, Jesus is our way to Heaven,  He said that Himself.  John 14:6

And this is not a contest.  Popular or unpopular, my eternity is secure because of Jesus and only Him.

Blessings, RustyAngeL

 

 

Have you given thought about what you will think or do if you see the Temple being rebuilt and no rapture has occurred? Have you thought about what happens if you see the beast killed and resurrected receiving the awe and worship of the world and no rapture has occurred? Obviously this is an aside but it's relevant. Aren't you more worried about believing a false doctrine in opposition to God instead of believing anyone who writes a book? I used to be where you are. I believed the same thing for decades. I did a crazy thing and compared the words of the authors to the scriptures they were quoting. I found them to be incorrect as the Word of God tells us a very different thing.

I think it is a salvation issue. I have one enormous concern about the end of the age prophecies and it honestly scared me to my core. Adding to the prophecies of Rev adds the plagues to me, taking away from the same prophecies means my name is taken out of the book of life. Since the gathering, and many other prophecies in Rev, are part of this topic we need to be very careful to get it right and not add or take away. 

[Flsnookman]

How about Eph 1:13 or John 6:39 or John 10:28-29 or 1 John 2:19? Or the hundreds of other verses that support OSAS? I find it fascinating that you can use a few  scriptures to support an unusual idea about the rapture but you fail to grasp Jesus message of eternal salvation and life everlasting.  To me the rapture is moot anyway, stroke,hit by a truck,raptured or old age when I die I go to be with Jesus forever as He has promised I have no need to fear otherwise. I often wonder if the people who picture God as hiding behind a tree waiting to snatch back salvation even know Jesus at all. They certainly do not have a relationship with the Jesus I know,love and serve. Meh, I guess all I can do is pray for them so I will.