Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Guest Robert]

19 hours ago, Diaste said:

Have you given thought about what you will think or do if you see the Temple being rebuilt and no rapture has occurred? Have you thought about what happens if you see the beast killed and resurrected receiving the awe and worship of the world and no rapture has occurred? Obviously this is an aside but it's relevant. Aren't you more worried about believing a false doctrine in opposition to God instead of believing anyone who writes a book? I used to be where you are. I believed the same thing for decades. I did a crazy thing and compared the words of the authors to the scriptures they were quoting. I found them to be incorrect as the Word of God tells us a very different thing.

I think it is a salvation issue. I have one enormous concern about the end of the age prophecies and it honestly scared me to my core. Adding to the prophecies of Rev adds the plagues to me, taking away from the same prophecies means my name is taken out of the book of life. Since the gathering, and many other prophecies in Rev, are part of this topic we need to be very careful to get it right and not add or take away. 

Let's turn the question around for a moment: what if you don't see it? What if these things do not happen before the end of your life, or worse? What if they do not happen before the Rapture?

The Rapture is not a salvation issue, because where one stands on the Rapture is not an indicator of where one stands with the Lord. if you're thinking you can make that call, scripture tells us not to judge another's servant.

Frankly, there has not been one thing proven on this entire board that would even remotely indicate the pre-tribulation rapture is a "false doctrine". For every point against it, another can be made for it, an the same stands with pre-wrath, mid-trib and post-trib beliefs.

 

And if you still wish to debate the point, then there is one last thing for you to consider: Scripture tells us that in the Church, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile who are saved. Yet Daniel ch.9 tells us that Israel still has responsibilities to fulfill before the Lord during the Tribulation, and God has promises yet to fulfill to Israel. We also see in Daniel that the "last week" of the age of Law is fulfilled out of "Daniel's 70 weeks". With all of this being true, the Church cannot be here, as that would break God's word that was already spoken.

Either God was a liar (which He cannot be), or Jew and gentile in the church are removed before the age of Law resumes.

Edited August 15, 2016 by RobertS

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, RobertS said:

Let's turn the question around for a moment: what if you don't see it? What if these things do not happen before the end of your life, or worse? What if they do not happen before the Rapture?

The Rapture is not a salvation issue, because where one stands on the Rapture is not an indicator of where one stands with the Lord. if you're thinking you can make that call, scripture tells us not to judge another's servant.

Frankly, there has not been one thing proven on this entire board that would even remotely indicate the pre-tribulation rapture is a "false doctrine". For every point against it, another can be made for it, an the same stands with pre-wrath, mid-trib and post-trib beliefs.

 

And if you still wish to debate the point, then there is one last thing for you to consider: Scripture tells us that in the Church, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile who are saved. Yet Daniel ch.9 tells us that Israel still has responsibilities to fulfill before the Lord during the Tribulation, and God has promises yet to fulfill to Israel. We also see in Daniel that the "last week" of the age of Law is fulfilled out of "Daniel's 70 weeks". With all of this being true, the Church cannot be here, as that would break God's word that was already spoken.

Either God was a liar (which He cannot be), or Jew and gentile in the church are removed before the age of Law resumes.

Again and again I see more rationalization from the PreTrib doctrine. There is only one gathering clearly described. All pretrib has are premises with no scriptural backing. Meaning the premises are incorrect, which in turn makes the conclusion also incorrect. Please post scripture that proves a secret coming by Jesus to gather the elect before the beginning of the 70th week.

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, RustyAngeL said:

I"m not adding to or taking from.  This is still not a salvation issue.  As I said it's all about Jesus.

Blessings, RustyAngeL

If two comings of Jesus are proposed by PreTrib, and in truth there is only one coming, then scripture has been added.

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, PatrolMan said:

I can only say that this site is not where you or anyone else would read over two hundred pages of research including the writings of over twenty theologians on this subject. If you want to believe that you are saved for ever, then I respect your opinion. As a minister, which doesn't make me any better then any one else have discussed this subject with a lot of other clergy members. Many people have a saying when it comes to discussing scripture which is " don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up" Please, I mean no disrespect in any way but we need to close our discussion and move on. This subject has nothing to do with salvation and it is a endless debate in which we both have expressed our belief and opinion.

But it is the place where we will all read scripture. All the research and writings and opinions of man approved positions and thought are meaningless when compared to the truth of the Word of God. I just want someone to present scripture that proves a pretrib rapture. So for no one has been able to. It's all just hope and rationalization. I know this because I used to hold to the same idea. The truth in the Word of God contradicts a pretrib rapture.

[Diaste]

On 8/14/2016 at 6:36 AM, Behold said:

John 8:24 .... """I (Jesus)  told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."""

The reason this verse is so important is because  it's explaining what keeps you out of heaven....= "sin".

So, when you reject Christ, you are deciding to pay for your sins, to "die in them", and that is why a person goes to hell.

The Cross is the cure for Sin....... That's its purpose.

See, Salvation is all about solving the unforgiven sin problem.......Jesus is dying for your sins on the cross, ... and HIS death is a pardon for the sin of the world, offered to "all who would come".

So, when a person "rejects Christ", they are rejecting pardon for their SIN, and this means that instead of letting Jesus pay for their sins while they are alive, they have chosen to "die in their sins", unforgiven, and will pay for their own sins = Lake of Fire = after they die.

From what I see this is the problem with contemporary christianity. Anything goes. We are all dead in our sins from birth. We are all separated from the Father right from the beginning. dying in sin only means we have lost our chance to repent. The choice is not to either reject or accept. We are rejected  from the beginning and Jesus saves us from this condition. What you seem to be saying is that until we reject Jesus we won't die in our sins. It might be pedantic but getting it right is important.

[PatrolMan]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

From what I see this is the problem with contemporary christianity. Anything goes. We are all dead in our sins from birth. We are all separated from the Father right from the beginning. dying in sin only means we have lost our chance to repent. The choice is not to either reject or accept. We are rejected  from the beginning and Jesus saves us from this condition. What you seem to be saying is that until we reject Jesus we won't die in our sins. It might be pedantic but getting it right is important.

Remember the lie about dying that the serpent told Eve?

[RustyAngeL]

1 hour ago, PatrolMan said:

Remember the lie about dying that the serpent told Eve?

We are now alive in Christ.   We were once dead.  When we come into that relationship with Him, He makes us alive.  We still sin but with that Spirit of Christ we repent.  Doing what He wants us to do seems at least to me natural.  I make a choice to follow Christ and I hold on to His Promises that when I trust Him He will lift me above urge to maybe do things that are against His Will.  I choose to follow Him. But when I do slip I am quick to ask forgiveness and He is just as quick to forgive me.

[Behold]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

dying in sin only means we have lost our chance to repent.

no, you are wrong, Diaste

Jesus said, "if you do not believe i am the messiah you will die in your sins""...

So, its a bit more involved then repenting, as you have to BELIEVE SOMETHING according to Jesus and your New Testament.

[Guest Robert]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Again and again I see more rationalization from the PreTrib doctrine. There is only one gathering clearly described. All pretrib has are premises with no scriptural backing. Meaning the premises are incorrect, which in turn makes the conclusion also incorrect. Please post scripture that proves a secret coming by Jesus to gather the elect before the beginning of the 70th week.

Not until you answer my questions that I asked first, Diaste.

[PatrolMan]

On 8/14/2016 at 6:09 AM, Flsnookman said:

How about Eph 1:13 or John 6:39 or John 10:28-29 or 1 John 2:19? Or the hundreds of other verses that support OSAS? I find it fascinating that you can use a few  scriptures to support an unusual idea about the rapture but you fail to grasp Jesus message of eternal salvation and life everlasting.  To me the rapture is moot anyway, stroke,hit by a truck,raptured or old age when I die I go to be with Jesus forever as He has promised I have no need to fear otherwise. I often wonder if the people who picture God as hiding behind a tree waiting to snatch back salvation even know Jesus at all. They certainly do not have a relationship with the Jesus I know,love and serve. Meh, I guess all I can do is pray for them so I will.

Remember what that old serpent told Eve? She was with God, disobeyed and died spiritually, many are going to go for the lie, it's hard to obey God and easier to do your own thing.