Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Guest shiloh357]

I have run along post tribbers and those who don't believe in ANY rapture scenario and after talking to them, I am amazed at how it almost seems like they WANT to go through the tribulation.

The tribulation will have unimaginable horrors and demonic activity that we have never seen before and have no point of reference for. Why would anyone want to go through that?

[ZacharyB]

22 hours ago, Ezra said:

The fact that millions of sound, conservative Christians believe this (on the basis of rightly dividing the Word of Truth) is sufficient evidence that it is not "false doctrine".  

Even a cursory reading of Scripture will show that at the Second Coming of Christ He comes WITH His saints and angels. 

Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, ...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zech 14:3-5).

Your millions have absolutely NO idea how to rightly divide the truth!

Your foist Scripture is ridiculous ... WHEN does this occur, huh?

It happens on the Day of the Lord @ the last trumpet @ Jesus' second coming

just before the wrath of God is poured out.

[Guest shiloh357]

11 minutes ago, ZacharyB said:

Your millions have absolutely NO idea how to rightly divide the truth!

Your foist Scripture is ridiculous ... WHEN does this occur, huh?

It happens on the Day of the Lord @ the last trumpet @ Jesus' second coming

just before the wrath of God is poured out.

You're saying that Jesus 2nd coming is BEFORE the wrath of God is poured out?

[Ezra]

6 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I have run along post tribbers and those who don't believe in ANY rapture scenario and after talking to them, I am amazed at how it almost seems like they WANT to go through the tribulation.

The tribulation will have unimaginable horrors and demonic activity that we have never seen before and have no point of reference for. Why would anyone want to go through that?

Perhaps a martyr complex? Seriously, I think many do not really understand the reason for a specific period called the Tribulation (which includes the Great Tribulation).  They do not see this as judgment and wrath, similar to the Flood.  Too many confuse the trials and tribulations (and martyrdom) of Christians with the judgments on the unbelieving and ungodly.

[missmuffet]

6 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I have run along post tribbers and those who don't believe in ANY rapture scenario and after talking to them, I am amazed at how it almost seems like they WANT to go through the tribulation.

The tribulation will have unimaginable horrors and demonic activity that we have never seen before and have no point of reference for. Why would anyone want to go through that?

I have heard some people say that they want to go through the tribulation for the adventure aspect of it. CRAZY!!! they have no idea of how horrible it will be.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

Perhaps a martyr complex? Seriously, I think many do not really understand the reason for a specific period called the Tribulation (which includes the Great Tribulation).  They do not see this as judgment and wrath, similar to the Flood.  Too many confuse the trials and tribulations (and martyrdom) of Christians with the judgments on the unbelieving and ungodly.

They see it as a time of persecution, I guess.  They don't realize just how bad it is going to be.

1 hour ago, bopeep1909 said:

I have heard some people say that they want to go through the tribulation for the adventure aspect of it. CRAZY!!! they have no idea of how horrible it will be.

That is crazy.  There is no adventure.  The water will turn into coagulated blood, and the air you breathe will scorch your throat.  People will be trying to commit suicide in the middle of the Trumpets.  They have no clue.

[missmuffet]

19 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

They see it as a time of persecution, I guess.  They don't realize just how bad it is going to be.

That is crazy.  There is no adventure.  The water will turn into coagulated blood, and the air you breathe will scorch your throat.  People will be trying to commit suicide in the middle of the Trumpets.  They have no clue.

I know it. Have them do a study on the WW2 Holocaust and then multiply it X 100

[WilliamL]

On 5/21/2016 at 11:54 PM, Ezra said:

On 5/21/2016 at 7:05 PM, WilliamL said:

1. False. Rev. 6:17 nowhere states that the cosmic events are the Wrath.

"For the Great Day of His Wrath has come/came." Simple logic says that the cosmic events of verses 12-14 could have directly preceded the Wrath.

If verse 17 had preceded the description of the cosmic events, then you would have a case. But it does not precede it, it follows it: so as it stands, you are adding your belief into the Word -- eisegesis.

This is called playing semantic games. The entire passage from Rev 6:12-17 is about wrath (and connected to the wrath of the Great Tribulation), and culminates with what you just quoted.  So what I am doing is interpreting -- hermeneutics -- not eisegesis.

YOU SAY "the entire passage from Rev 6:12-17 is about wrath" -- but the passage nowhere says that itself. This is eisegesis pure and plain: you keep adding your own beliefs to the Word, then keep denying it.

On 5/21/2016 at 11:54 PM, Ezra said:

On 5/21/2016 at 7:05 PM, WilliamL said:

2. Again, you are adding your own unsupported presumption into the Word. Nothing therein says that "the culmination of the salvation of the Church" --the Rapture -- is not part of the cause of the universal mourning of the unbelievers.

Had you studied the significance of the Rapture, you would not have made such a comment. The perfection of the saints and the glorification of their bodies is indeed the culmination of salvation.  That is A CONCLUSION from the rest of Scripture, therefore "it does not say" has no relevance.  Please study the Rapture properly.  And because the Rapture is about JOY whereas the Second Coming is about MOURNING, there is absolutely no way that both these things happen at the same time.

Since I have been "studying the significance of the Rapture" for more than 40 years, you only show your ignorance of me.

You say, "Please study the Rapture properly."  Which is only your way of saying that if I point out errors in your facts and logic, I am studying improperly.

You say, "the Rapture is about JOY whereas the Second Coming is about MOURNING, there is absolutely no way that both these things happen at the same time."  This shows complete ignorance of the end of this or any age. Noah rejoiced for his deliverance in the ark, while the people outside of it mourned. The elect who come out of the Great Tribulation rejoice in heaven in Rev. 7, but those who remain left behind on earth hide themselves in terror and mourning.

On 5/21/2016 at 11:54 PM, Ezra said:

On 5/21/2016 at 7:05 PM, WilliamL said:

3. Nothing in Matt. 24:15-31 speaks of "the believing Jewish remnant being brought to Israel." Once more you are adding to the Word.

Accusing people of "adding to the Word" is a very serious matter. Obviously you feel you have the liberty to interpret Scripture, but if others do so it is pejoratively labelled as "adding to the Word".  As a matter of fact there are numerous Scriptures (in the OT and NT) which speak of Christ gathering a believing Jewish remnant at His second coming.

When Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse, the Church had not even come into existence, let alone any teaching about the Rapture of the Church.  Christ was telling the apostles what would happen to the Temple, to Jerusalem, to Judea, and to Israel between His first and second comings, while foretelling worldwide events which correspond to the first five seals of Revelation. The Jewish apostles would understand "the elect" strictly in terms of Israel.  Furthermore, a close comparison with 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 makes it quite clear that Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the Rapture.

Lots of claims here, the essentials of which have been already dissected and disproven by Omegaman:

On 5/20/2016 at 3:48 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

...in 1 Thess 4, the most obvious rapture verse in the Bible, the very passage where we get the word rapture (in Latin), it says this happens at THE coming of the Lord, not one of two comings of the Lord.

Then Paul, in 2 Thess, addresses it again:

 1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

again, THE coming and again our gathering to Him

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

So, who is this man of lawlessness, who takes his seat in the temple, claiming to be God? If the coming of the Lord and out gathering does not take place until after this man shows up, where and when do you suppose that happens BEFORE the tribulation exactly? What verse do you have that shows it?

Try, actually try, to get your eschatology from the Bible, instead of making the Bible, fit your eschatology.

 

[ZacharyB]

23 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

You're saying that Jesus 2nd coming is BEFORE the wrath of God is poured out?

Yes, as you know God's wrath on the day of the Lord

will be far worse than anything the antichrist has to offer.

God's faithful remnant born-again believers will not experience God's wrath on the ungodly.

Yes, Jesus will rapture them out of harm's way on the final day of the Lord.

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Lots of claims here, the essentials of which have been already dissected and disproven by Omegaman:

William

Omegaman is not our standard.  Omegaman is bright and intelligent, but so are many of Us others.  I go by "No one knows about that day or hour except the Father in heaven".  This is referring to the Bridegroom retrieving His Bride.  For God the Father is the One who draws us to Christ (or anyone to Christ).  When this last Believer is called or drawn by God the Father to Christ, the Bride is now complete and ready for transformation and their trip into Heaven to the Fathers House as promised by Jesus Christ in John 14.  Yet, Omegaman comes up with the term/statement: But the Scriptures do not say that we will never know of that day or hour of the Bridegroom coming for His Bride.  Just the insertion of the word But puts his own words into the mix of things, and thus are/is not of Scripture and just an opinion.  As with many, our views are opinions.  I do not take all of what William says, Omegaman or inchrist, SS, Last Daze, Ezra, Marilyn, Sister and many many others as Absolute Truth.  And yet we all have our Opinions.  William you do not fall in line with all that Omegaman believes.  He is Post and you are PreWrath.  So why quote or align yourself with someone who does not agree with your position.

In Christ

Montana Marv

So all our debating is just Opinions,  A lot of Scripture involved.  A lot of Truth, and a lot of Truth, but who's interpretation of the Truth is really Truth.  So who's Interpretation of the Truth really is the Truth?  This will be a life time of Adventure.