more indept study of Armenian and Calvinist

[angels4u]

 

 

 

 Many of us do not really grasp the meaning of both and that's why I would like everybody's input of in which camp we belong.

 

I believe in a free will:

By free will , I believe God gives us all a choice to either accept or reject the gospel message.

God knows already who will reject or accept Him

 

Please share all you know about this topic or everything you want to ask,we're all here to learn

 

 

 

[RedwoodLady]

After much study I am leaning toward the Calvinistic view of things.  However, the one issue I am undecided on is the final point John Piper made in the second link you referenced above.  Here is what he said:

"The key difference between a Calvinist and an Arminian is how they understand how we get saved; that is, how we move from a condition of spiritual unbelief to a condition of heartfelt belief or faith in Christ. And the key difference is this: Calvinists believe that God has to produce in us the decisive desire for Christ. And Arminians believe we must produce in ourselves the decisive desire for Christ. The Arminians say that God helps us. He helps all people, but we provide the last, decisive impetus and desire for that belief. " 

 

 

 

 

[Ezra]

3 hours ago, angels4u said:

I don't want to take anything away from Bobeep thread but I love to go a little deeper of what it really stands for and why you think you are Arminian or why you think you are Calvinist.

The Five Points of Calvinism (rejected by Arminians) are:

T = Total Depravity (for the Calvinist total inability, and is where Calvinists reject free will).

U = Unconditional Election (the elect predestined for Heaven, others for Hell)

L = Limited Atonement (Christ died only for the elect)

I = Irresistible Grace (the elect cannot help getting saved)

P =Perseverance of the Saints (the elect cannot lose their salvation)

Personally, I believe that Calvinism is false doctrine, since it distorts Bible Truth.  At the same time, I do not consider myself an Arminian, but a Biblicist.

[angels4u]

6 hours ago, RedwoodLady said:

After much study I am leaning toward the Calvinistic view of things.  However, the one issue I am undecided on is the final point John Piper made in the second link you referenced above.  Here is what he said:

"The key difference between a Calvinist and an Arminian is how they understand how we get saved; that is, how we move from a condition of spiritual unbelief to a condition of heartfelt belief or faith in Christ. And the key difference is this: Calvinists believe that God has to produce in us the decisive desire for Christ. And Arminians believe we must produce in ourselves the decisive desire for Christ. The Arminians say that God helps us. He helps all people, but we provide the last, decisive impetus and desire for that belief. " 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello Red riding hood  ( I hope you're not offended by your beautiful name?)

That is where I have my problem too, I believe God gives us a free will to either reject or accept the gospel but on the other hand we would not be able to do that without the Holy Spirit convicting us from our  sins.

On our own we would not  be able to see or to look for the truth,it is the Holy Spirit who is directing us to God and the Holy Spirit is God  .

The Holy Spirit makes us aware of our state of sin , God knows already who will accept Him,so is there really a free choice I wonder?

God is also fair,why would he choose us and not others?

Therefore I believe we have a free will to choose which to except.

Do you know what I mean?

 

[kwikphilly]

Thanks Ezra,for the 5 important points of Calvinism beliefs,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that leaves me out

Thanks Angels,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I understand your reasons for starting this study,great Topic for anyone who considers themselves either but like you ,it is so so so difficult for me to relate to "labels" & categories,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,there is but one label I happily fit under   "SAVED" and much like Ezra,my beliefs are grounded & rooted in the Word of God ,that ALONE,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jesus abides in me,I don't need to fit in to any category,,,,,,,,,,I guess that makes me simply HIS

[angels4u]

5 hours ago, Ezra said:

The Five Points of Calvinism (rejected by Arminians) are:

T = Total Depravity (for the Calvinist total inability, and is where Calvinists reject free will).

U = Unconditional Election (the elect predestined for Heaven, others for Hell)

L = Limited Atonement (Christ died only for the elect)

I = Irresistible Grace (the elect cannot help getting saved)

P =Perseverance of the Saints (the elect cannot lose their salvation)

Personally, I believe that Calvinism is false doctrine, since it distorts Bible Truth.  At the same time, I do not consider myself an Arminian, but a Biblicist.

1

Very good explanation,thank you Ezra

This is how I think of  these points:

So nr.1 is where Calvinist completely don't think anybody can reject the gospel if God is  choosing  them?

How fair would that be for people who are not called, God is fair and died for all for whosoever will come..

Nr.2  God would not decide already who are going to heaven or hell....where is our choice in this since God is fair? Why would He send people to hell?

nr.3  Jesus died for everybody and not only for some..

nr.4 If you understand the truth, it is hard to resist the truth if you know better,why would somebody reject such a gift?

nr5. Yes I believe too : ones saved always saved.

 lol For me personally ,it would make me more Arminian than Calvininst~~~~

 ( I always thought I was more Calvinist, but I do agree with many other teaching they have,many of them  are wonderful!

[angels4u]

8 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Thanks Ezra,for the 5 important points of Calvinism beliefs,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that leaves me out

Thanks Angels,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I understand your reasons for starting this study,great Topic for anyone who considers themselves either but like you ,it is so so so difficult for me to relate to "labels" & categories,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,there is but one label I happily fit under   "SAVED" and much like Ezra,my beliefs are grounded & rooted in the Word of God ,that ALONE,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jesus abides in me,I don't need to fit in to any category,,,,,,,,,,I guess that makes me simply HIS

 

Thanks Kwik,I don't like labeling either,but it is interesting to know where we stand on those things, do you might sharing why or not you agree or disagree with those points?

[Omegaman 3.0]

It is of course, and interesting topic, and I, like Ezra, consider myself a Biblicist. Thee diference is though, that I see those five points and thouroughly Biblical. To my mind, that Arminian perspective, robs God of the glory of saving us by His grace alone, and but salvation, into the hands of man, with God being a helper.

It is interesting, that it was said:

The five points of Calvinists (rejected be arminians) are . . . 

This is where it is interesting. Neither Calvin, nor Arminus, made any list like this. Followers of Arminius, formluated things they objected to in Calvin's Teachings, they we essentialy becoming protestors of Protestantism. The Dutch reformers replied to the objections of these remonstrants, and issued the concepts of TULIP in reply, before pronouncing the five objects that the followers of Arminus had, as heresy.

Basic idea of the TULIP

T - Total depravity	This does not mean that people are as evil as possible. I means that since people are damaged  by sin, they are spiritually blind, spiritually deaf, have hardened hearts, are prisoners to sin, Our inability to save ourselves is TOTAL
U - Unconditional election	The idea here, is that God chose us in eternity, before the foundation of the world, to be rescued. saved, We are informed why, so t is UNCONDITIONAL, as far as we can tell, why God chose who He chose, other than His own soveriegn will, for His good pleasure.
L - Limited atonement	The atonement, the price ot ransom  that Jesus paid on the cross, is sufficient to cover all sin.However, it is LIMITED  to those who God chose to give the faith to beleive.
I - Irresistible grace	Everyone resists God, but the grace He exerts on those He chose, if too powerful resist, we cannot overpower His choice. His grace is therefore, IRRESISTIBLE.
P - Perseverance of the saints	Those God has chosen will win the fight of faith. They will PERSEVERE to the end, so that none will be lost. This is the promise of the New Testament

 

[Guest shiloh357]

49 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Hello Red riding hood  ( I hope you're not offended by your beautiful name?)

That is where I have my problem too, I believe God gives us a free will to either reject or accept the gospel but on the other hand we would not be able to do that without the Holy Spirit convicting us from our  sins.

On our own we would not  be able to see or to look for the truth,it is the Holy Spirit who is directing us to God and the Holy Spirit is God  .

The Holy Spirit makes us aware of our state of sin , God knows already who will accept Him,so is there really a free choice I wonder?

God is also fair,why would he choose us and not others?

Therefore I believe we have a free will to choose which to except.

Do you know what I mean?

 

I think it is important to note that nothing about the 5 points of Calvinism are in the Bible.  There is nothing in the Bible about election being unconditional, nothing in the Bible about the atonement being only efficacious for the unconditionally elect, nothing in the Bible about man being so totally depraved that he must be regenerated first before he can receive or answer the call to salvation, nothing about grace being irresistible.  None of that is there.   The problem with perseverance is that it is predicated on those other four principles and not really on the faithfulness of God.

I believe in eternal security, but not for the reasons that the Calvinists do.  I believe we are eternally secure because God is faithful to His promises.  We are secure because God is not going to change his mind tomorrow and decide to revoke salvation and the Gospel.

Jesus, always brought people to a point of decision.  They always had to make a choice.  The rich young ruler, Pilate, Judas, and others.  Jesus always gave people the freedom to accept or reject Him.    The Holy Spirit convicts us, but we decide what we do with that.  We are shown our sin, and we are given the Gospel as the remedy, but it is up to us to accept that remedy.  Nothing is imposed on us at all.

Calvinism is a theological teaching, but it is not really biblical teaching.  And Calvin was a lawyer and was trained as a lawyer not a theologian.  His "Institutes" were not the product of a long and deep abiding relationship with the Lord, but were written within just a couple of years of his conversion to Christianity from Catholicism. 

I am not a pure Arminian in that strict Arminianism believes that salvation can be lost.

 

[enoob57]

7 hours ago, Ezra said:

The Five Points of Calvinism (rejected by Arminians) are:

T = Total Depravity (for the Calvinist total inability, and is where Calvinists reject free will).

U = Unconditional Election (the elect predestined for Heaven, others for Hell)

L = Limited Atonement (Christ died only for the elect)

I = Irresistible Grace (the elect cannot help getting saved)

P =Perseverance of the Saints (the elect cannot lose their salvation)

Personally, I believe that Calvinism is false doctrine, since it distorts Bible Truth.  At the same time, I do not consider myself an Arminian, but a Biblicist.

I as well~ as God has so ordered the new life to be of dependence upon The Written Word and s/Spiritual structured realities formed from that Word...