BlindSeeker Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 425 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 28, 2016 Quote Diaste posted in response to my post here - This whole post should be deleted. It's trash. LOL, you must be a liberal democrat.... cause you sure talk more like one than a true follower of Christ. You know what is worse than polarization of opinion? The "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" attitude that wishes to silence the opposition. Too bad your post was still sitting in my email.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted May 28, 2016 6 minutes ago, BlindSeeker said: LOL, you must be a liberal democrat.... cause you sure talk more like one than a true follower of Christ. You know what is worse than polarization of opinion? The "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" attitude that wishes to silence the opposition. Too bad your post was still sitting in my email.... Don't pretend to know who I am or what I believe. That whole post was a copy and paste and the conclusions are based on wild assumptions that are refuted by the actual text. Not only that, the agenda of the writer is clear and unbiblical. And yes, I would do what I can to silence those opposed to clear biblical truth and refute heresies as often as possible. I stand by what I said: the post should be deleted cause it's earthly wisdom and therefore useless. Like trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
post Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Share Posted May 28, 2016 12 minutes ago, BlindSeeker said: LOL, you must be a liberal democrat.... cause you sure talk more like one than a true follower of Christ. You know what is worse than polarization of opinion? The "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" attitude that wishes to silence the opposition. unjustifiable generalization and implied blanket condemnation and judgement ain't that great either.what do we as believers have to do with worldly politics? why use them like a slur? where are we called to do any such thing? this has nothing to do with 2 Thessalonians at all. i'd be pleased if you all keep your personal bickering to PM's, but even more pleased if you submit to the Spirit and cease from it altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
post Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Share Posted May 28, 2016 14 hours ago, BlindSeeker said: Stay blessable lol what does this mean? God showers blessings on both the righteous and the wicked. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.(Matthew 5:45) so Jesus teaches us that we should be as Him, showing love, mercy and kindness to our brothers and sisters and our enemies alike: that we may be the children of our Father in heaven, and not as the children of this world, who only bless those who bless them. the children of this world separate others into categories { blessable, unblessable } -- but the Lord of Hosts shows Himself hospitable and generous to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, post said: the kjv is not the be-all / end-all source for what the scripture says -- this was written in Greek, not ye olde Anglish. it's a translation - a good one, to be sure, but it isn't perfect, and as the English language usage evolves, some things as written in English 400+ years ago are better stated today with different words. Strong's Transliteration Greek English Morphology 2532 [e] kai καὶ And Conj 3568 [e] nyn νῦν now Adv 3588 [e] to τὸ that which Art-ANS 2722 [e] katechon κατέχον is restraining, V-PPA-ANS 1492 [e] oidate οἴδατε, you know, V-RIA-2P notice that the word in the scripture translated into English "is restraining" ((or in the KJV, "is withholding")) is a verb. not a noun, but the scripture speaks of "that which" is restraining -- referring to a being, here in verse 7, "the [one] restraining" -- in nominative masculine singular case: 3440 [e] monon μόνον only [there is] Adv 3588 [e] ho ὁ the [one] Art-NMS 2722 [e] katechōn κατέχων restraining [it] V-PPA-NMS 737 [e] arti ἄρτι at present Adv 2193 [e] heōs ἕως until Conj 1537 [e] ek ἐκ out of Prep 3319 [e] mesou μέσου [the] midst Adj-GNS 1096 [e] genētai γένηται. he might be [gone]. V-ASM-3S if you can explain how this Greek word doesn't mean "restraining" then go for it. ((Greek breakdown copied from biblehub.com)) "restraining" instead of "withholdeth" is not a problem, means the same thing. The difference comes in - in change the "what" in the KJV to being a who. Because if that is done the verse loses it meaning. 6 And now ye know what withholdeth (is restraining) that he might be revealed in his time. The what is the gathering unto the Lord. Edited May 28, 2016 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, post said: here's something interesting -- the "restrainer" in 2 Thessalonians is referred to using masculine singular tense. but in the very same letter, the addressee "the church" is feminine: 3588 [e] tē τῇ to the Art-DFS 1577 [e] ekklēsia ἐκκλησίᾳ church N-DFS 2331 [e] Thessalonikeōn Θεσσαλονικέων of [the] Thessalonians, N-GMP (( this is from 2 Thessalonians 1:1 ← full text in the link )) i think this obvious gender mis-match throws a serious wrench into the interpretation that the church itself is "the restrainer" / "the withholder" so here's something you'd never grasp if all you ever study is the words of the kjv ((or any English translation, because English language does not carry gender information)), without that the Spirit guide you in your understanding. not that we cannot comprehend the mystery of God without studying Greek/Hebrew -- because by the Spirit we are taught all things, even if we do look at the original languages! but that there is certainly great value for understanding and knowledge for us if we are able to learn to look into these things. their ready availability all over the internet for us is a huge blessing in our time! all the same we should all be careful not to think we're 'experts' just because we have resources. i am not trained in these languages at all. i just know how to look things up. if someone who is trained to comprehend this stuff would correct me, please do so!! i would love to gain understanding by the rebuke English does not carry gender information or all the tenses and cases that Greek grammar uses. so information is necessarily lost when we translate the scripture to English. our language simply cannot contain the information in the original -- it is a "lower dimension." this information - present in the scripture as written - can only be found by (1) the guidance of the Holy Spirit miraculously teaching us and/or (2) studying the original languages. if you're kjv-only, here's another reason for you to drop the pretense. The what is not the church for sure. The what is "the gathering unto Christ". You don't have a problem with the what being a "gathering", do you, grammar wise? The church, believers, are who is gathered, taken out of the way. But the what is the gathering.... kinda like a family reunion (a loose comparison). The Day of Christ, the Day of the Lord here on earth will be the great tribulation. The Day of Christ, for the raptured believers, who will be in heaven as the earth goes through the great tribulation, will be the review of our lives and rewards from Jesus for what we have done for the cause of Christ. Rejoice oh heaven, for your accuser Satan has been cast down to earth. Woe to them on the earth. Paraphrasing Revelation 12. The Day of Christ here on earth - the great tribulation. The Day of Christ in heaven - rewards to the saints and the marriage to the lamb to be with Jesus where ever He goes. In 2thessalonians2, overall, Paul was clarifying timewise, the resurrection/rapture that he taught to the Thessalonians in 1Thessalonians4, which that chapter doesn't give the timing. The only requirement, timewise, is that the rapture must take place before the man of sin commits the act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God. Edited May 28, 2016 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
post Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Share Posted May 28, 2016 17 minutes ago, douggg said: "restraining" instead of "withholdeth" is not a problem, means the same thing. The difference comes in - in change the "what" in the KJV to being a who. Because if that is done the verse looses it meaning. 6 And now ye know what withholdeth (is restraining) that he might be revealed in his time. thanks what's actually in the text to determine the difference between a "what" and a "who" ? the scripture is full of anthropomorphic language, describing ideas and things and "whats" as if they are a "who" -- so just looking at the language with tweezers, even if we could tell the subject is animate instead of inanimate, it wouldn't necessarily tell us whether it's a "who" or a "what." even the kjv uses the language of a "who" in verse 7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
post Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Share Posted May 28, 2016 10 minutes ago, douggg said: The what is not the church for sure. The what is "the gathering unto Christ". You don't have a problem with the what being a "gathering", do you, grammar wise? The church, believers, are who is gathered, taken out of the way. But the what is the gathering.... kinda like a family reunion (a loose comparison). no i don't have any problem with the "being taken away" being a gathering back unto Himself. but the gender mismatch doesn't jive in my head with the "who/what" being the ekklesia -- maybe by implication, the Spirit that lives in the hearts of the church and unites us as one body, because the Spirit is consistently referred to as masculine, but the ekklesia is consistently referred to as feminine in scripture. besides, i don't see the members of the actual church doing much restraining of the world and its lawlessness. that notion seems to be a step down a dark & slippery path into papal-style human government. not that i have this all sorted out by any means, but what seems agreeable to me is that God has ordained some force which prevents the wickedness of the world from surpassing some threshold before the proper time, and at the time He has set, He will remove that ((whatever it is)) so that their vileness may manifest and His righteous judgement may be implemented. i.e. that the cup of His indignation may be filled. i'm also not dogmatic about rapture or any end-time eschatology - i'll admit all day that i simply don't have the wisdom or understanding to know these things, without denying that He may grant such knowledge to others - but what people teach about this verse referring to removing His people to spare them the wrath to come seems to agree very well with what i know to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) 16 minutes ago, post said: thanks what's actually in the text to determine the difference between a "what" and a "who" ? the scripture is full of anthropomorphic language, describing ideas and things and "whats" as if they are a "who" -- so just looking at the language with tweezers, even if we could tell the subject is animate instead of inanimate, it wouldn't necessarily tell us whether it's a "who" or a "what." even the kjv uses the language of a "who" in verse 7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. Well the who in verse 7 is what the explanation is about in the opening post I made to start this thread. The who is Jesus because he is the one who has been given all power in heaven and in the earth, Matthew 28:18. The he is Jesus - "who".... lets the mystery of iniquity take place, which is the mystery of lost-ness, eternally. falling away from believing that Jesus is the messiah, the savior. Which is the spirit of Antichrist, to deny both Father and Son. This goes on, ultimately culminating in the revealing of the man of sin - son of perdition (eternally being lost) - until "he" - Jesus, not Jesus himself, but his body here on earth, the church, the believers are taken out of the way. Then, after the church the believers are gone, the man sin commits the act of claiming to be God, which the Day of the Christ, the Day of the Lord follows, the great tribulation here on earth begins. Edited May 28, 2016 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
post Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Share Posted May 28, 2016 i'm with you -- the mystery of the Bridegroom & His bride could be talked about equally truthfully as the Spirit who dwells in us or as Christ who is in us and we in Him. the Son and the Spirit are One even as the Father and the Son are One, and in Him we are One - this is 'heaven' and eternal life: to know Him, and to be One with Him as He is One. ♫ hallelujah! hallelujah! we will be with you ♪ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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