When Michael stands up

[WilliamL]

15 hours ago, ghtan said:

A common view is that the woman is Israel and the man-child is Jesus. I like this view; it is simple and intuitive.

So Israel was, late in the 1st century B.C., a heavenly woman who gave birth to a physical man? Strange type of intuition.

So John suddenly has a vision, in the middle of his visions of "things that shall take place after these things" (4:1), of things which took place before he was born, and there is no mention of it by either John or the angel? Huh-uh.

[WilliamL]

7 hours ago, Ezra said:

If you change that to "redeemed Israel" or "righteous Israel" (also called the good olive tree) then that Woman is a symbol of righteous Israel, and the 12 stars represent the righteous out of each tribe.  Being clothed with light further reinforces that interpretation since the man-child is clearly Jesus...

 But there was no "redeemed Israel" at the time Jesus was born! He was born to redeem them, and to bring them righteousness, by his sacrifice of atonement.

Luke 24:21 “But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel."

[WilliamL]

7 hours ago, Sister said:

Does Israel give the light or does God?  Israel was resting on the woman (God's teachings), which is why the 12 stars are on the woman's head,..The 12 tribes are the crown on the woman, and not the woman herself. 

Israel never obtained a heavenly crown before Jesus was born: only the Church can obtain the heavenly crown -- and that crown could not come upon the woman until after his atonement.

The 12 stars therefore denote Apostolic authority and exaltation, not any authority of soulish Israel.

Whereas the "moon under her feet" denote the true Israelite position, because the cycles of the moon determines all of the Mosaic feast days. The woman stands upon the Hebraic roots.

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 But there was no "redeemed Israel" at the time Jesus was born! He was born to redeem them, and to bring them righteousness, by his sacrifice of atonement.

Luke 24:21 “But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel."

All the OT saints since Abel, Mary and Joseph, and all those who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ while He was on earth were all a part of redeemed Israel -- the good olive tree, with Christ as the root.

The verse in Luke 24:21 speaks of the time when the entire nation will be redeemed and restored (Acts 1:6,7):

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

[WilliamL]

10 minutes ago, Ezra said:

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 But there was no "redeemed Israel" at the time Jesus was born! He was born to redeem them, and to bring them righteousness, by his sacrifice of atonement.

All the OT saints since Abel, Mary and Joseph, and all those who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ while He was on earth were all a part of redeemed Israel -- the good olive tree, with Christ as the root.

But according to your interpretation of Rev. 12, the woman has to be redeemed Israel BEFORE Jesus was born on the earth, since you say that she was his mother.

However, be it spiritual OR physical redemption, it could not have taken place until AFTER he was born, AFTER He offered His redeeming blood of sacrifice. So you appear to be promoting an anachronism.

[ghtan]

12 hours ago, Sister said:

gthan

The only problem I have with that view is that Israel was never standing above the earth, but came up out of the earth and chosen.  Israel is below and this woman is above clothed in light.  Israel received instructions from above.

Earth? I don't read that anywhere. I think you mean the moon is under her feet in verse 1, correct? It alludes to Gen 37:9. Jacob understood the planetary bodies in Joseph's dream to refer to them i.e. the bible does use these symbols for Israel. 

[ghtan]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

So Israel was, late in the 1st century B.C., a heavenly woman who gave birth to a physical man? Strange type of intuition.

So John suddenly has a vision, in the middle of his visions of "things that shall take place after these things" (4:1), of things which took place before he was born, and there is no mention of it by either John or the angel? Huh-uh.

LOL. You have problems with Israel symbolised as a heavenly woman and yet you have no problem with the woman being a mysterious Shekinah whom you term as the feminine of God?! Seems like you have one standard for yourself and another for others. 

Besides, I did point out that this is a common view. Which means MANY find it intuitive enough. How many share your Shekinah explanation? I have not heard of it myself. Can't be more intuitive, can it then?

As for John including things that happened in the recent past in his revelation of the end days, it is not a problem. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that his dream was about the future (Dan 2:45) yet the first part of the image depict Nebuchadnezzar himself. Same with Dan 7.

[Sister]

12 hours ago, Ezra said:

Sister,

Redeemed Israel radiates light to indicate that the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles) will radiate light. God gives this light to His saints -- He glorifies them and is glorified in them.  The rest of your interpretation simply adds confusion to something which is quite clear.

Hi Ezra

I never said anything about redeemed Israel.  The Woman delivered the man child Jesus when he was born. He was sent to give the light of his Father's kingdom (depicted as the woman).

Before that, Israel was under the Woman (God's teachings), according to the OT,  but the light never came until the Word of God came down and dwelt with man.  No man had the light before this, the whole truth, and all of God's commandments in full.

Jesus was born out of this woman's teachings, before that he was not born yet, and did not dwell with man to give the light. 

This light Jesus gave, is from the same God who brought the Hebrews out of Egypt.  That's why the crown is on her head, it's the same God of Israel.

Sorry, I am rushed at the moment.

[Sister]

4 hours ago, ghtan said:

Earth? I don't read that anywhere. I think you mean the moon is under her feet in verse 1, correct? It alludes to Gen 37:9. Jacob understood the planetary bodies in Joseph's dream to refer to them i.e. the bible does use these symbols for Israel. 

The moon under her feet just means she's heavenly, from above.  She's higher than the earth, not of the earth.  The kingdom we dwell in is of heaven, the laws come out of heaven.

And yes, Joseph's dream symbolises the 12 tribes of Israel, I was going to mention this but you did already.  Good job.

[Ezra]

8 minutes ago, Sister said:

Jesus was born out of this woman's teachings

Sorry Sister, but you are thoroughly confused. No point continuing.