A fence-sitter finally jumps off

[missmuffet]

14 minutes ago, OakWood said:

I realise that and I'm still undecided - but it's just that the Pre-Trib has raised some questions and all I'm frankly asking for is that these questions be addressed. But I'm not getting any clear answers (yet).

It really doesn't matter. People get so angry and waste a lot of time trying to convince each other that their view is the only view. God is going to take us in His plan and in His timing. In the end it is not going to matter.

[Ezra]

8 hours ago, OakWood said:

1/ No real mention of pre-Trib having happened in Book of Revelation.

Actually it is mentioned indirectly in Rev 3:10, but there is really no compelling reason why it should be mentioned there at all. Revelation focuses primarily on the judgments to come upon the unbelieving and ungodly world. What you find is a series of judgments, but they have nothing to do with the Church.

8 hours ago, OakWood said:

2/ No significant mention in scripture.

The Resurrection/Rapture -- Christ coming for His saints -- is mentioned several times in the NT. You can start with John 14:1-3.  In fact the resurrection of the saints is a key doctrine in the Bible, so perhaps the deficiency is in your not have researched this fully.

8 hours ago, OakWood said:

3/ Pre-Trib suggests a third coming of Christ.

Since Christ does not descend to earth at the Rapture but comes in *the air*strictly for His saints and then returns to Heaven with them, the Rapture is not a "coming" in the sense of coming down to earth.  So there are really only two comings of Christ.

8 hours ago, OakWood said:

4/ Pre-Tribbers place great emphasis on the Church not being mentioned in future prophecy as if this somehow indicates that Christians are no longer around during the Tribulation.

And so should you, or anyone else. Since there is not a single occurrence of the word *Church* or *churches* after Revelation 3, it behooves every student of Scripture to ask why, when the rest of the NT speaks of the Church and churches all the time.  People simply don't get it that the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are NOT for the people of God, but for the unbelieving and the ungodly. This is so basic and so simply, yet some Christians can't seem to get their heads around this.

8 hours ago, OakWood said:

5/ Some pre-Tribbers (but not all) seem to think that the 'Holy Spirit' is the restrainer.

Since only God the Holy Spirit has the power to restrain Satan, and even the archangel Michael dared not rebuke Satan, but asked God to rebuke him, it follows that the only one holding back the full control of this world by Satan is God the Holy Spirit by His presence on earth and within the Church.

8 hours ago, OakWood said:

6/ Why would God rescue Christians from the wrath of evil when he has never done this before? Why do today's Christians believe that they are so special?

You seem to have forgotten that Noah and his family and Lot and his family were preserved from God's wrath. Christians are special because God considers them as special -- His own children who are also in the Body of Christ -- literally joined to Christ.

8 hours ago, OakWood said:

7/ Some pre-Tribbers claim that the reason they are not interested in knowing the identity of the anti-Christ is because they won't be there.

Maybe so.  But all Christians (and the whole world) should know that this Man of Sin will appear to deceive and control the whole world for 3 1/2 years. This disinterest does not invalidate the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. A lot of pastors and teachers are not interested in Bible prophecy either, and some denominations believe that nothing (or almost nothing) remains to be fulfilled, and the AC showed up in 70 AD.

8 hours ago, OakWood said:

9/ Pre-Tribbers believe that God 'cutting the time short' is proof of a pre-Trib rapture.

Obviously this is a mistaken belief, and this is actually incorrect. No Pre-Tribber believes this.

8 hours ago, OakWood said:

10/ Pre-tribbers are not playing the game

This is pure fantasy.

[OakWood]

I think the real problem I have with the pre-Trib rapture can be boiled down to this.

Whenever pre-Tribbers debate I get the feeling that they are starting off with an assumption and then searching for scripture to fit that assumption. The post-Tribbers don't do this because they have nothing to gain from it. Nobody wants to live through horrific times, so nobody is going to want to find evidence that we are going to live through horrific times.

If I may give you a parable.

Imagine a serious crime has been committed. Imagine if a woman has been stabbed to death and a man was discovered at the scene of the crime standing over her body with a blood-stained knife in his hand.

The most obvious explanation is that he killed the woman. Although there may be other explanations (such as: he discovered the body,  saw the knife lying next to her and picked it up, and while he was examining it somebody arrived and caught him), the other explanations require evidence too. If you like the man and do not wish to find him guilty, you will come up with all sorts of theories to explain his innocence, but if you are an impartial juror you will merely examine the facts.

If you approach the pre-Trib, post-Trib theories with no preconceived ideas then you'll probably arrive at the post-Trib conclusion. That's what I have tried to do. I was a fence-sitter because at the time I began to listen to the pre-Trib/post-Trib debate I hadn't even heard of the rapture. As a new Christian, I didn't even know what it was.

It seems to me that pre-Tribbers believe that Christians will not be around during the Tribulation so they search for scripture to support that. And they are very intelligent, don't get me wrong. They have certainly spent a lot of time researching it, and they will mention Daniel's seventieth week, the time of the gentiles, the time of the Jews and so on... but they seem to be trying to explain something that in my mind needs no explanation.

They are clever at finding clues that others may have missed but they are like somebody using a magnifying glass and a forensic chemist's laboratory kit to work out who it was that ate the chicken that was left on the dining table - when in reality the chicken is gone, the cat is still in the room and the cat has pieces of chicken around his face. You don't need Sherlock Holmes to work that one out.

When I first read the book of Revelation I got the impression that evil comes into the World, Christians are then persecuted, times are very hard but in the end there is a happy ending because God finally comes to the rescue. Then I heard about the rapture and assumed that it was just part of the rescue. I never assumed that we would be rescued before any of this happened.

When I first heard of the pre-Trib theory I was fascinated by it and believed that I had missed something that those wiser than myself had worked out already. But God is not an author of confusion. Sometimes the simplest idea is the right one.

It needs no explanation as to why there is no Church during the Trib, because the church is hardly going to be in a position to exist. It needs no explanation as to why God would allow his people to suffer under the rule of the antiChrist because history is full of examples of the righteous suffering.

But it does need explanation as to why there will be a pre-Trib rapture, and that explanation requires all sorts of juggling.

There will be a second-coming of Christ, but there won't be because he starts to arrive, gets half way here and then goes back, taking us with him.

The Holy Spirit will leave too, but it won't leave because it can't.

The times will be cut short for the sake of the elect, but it won't be cut short for their sake because they won't be there anyway... so the time must be cut short for the sake of another elect who aren't the same as the first elect....

and so on.....

Pre-Trib complicates things and poses more questions than it answers which suggests to me that it is a product of imaginations trying to make the evidence fit the verdict rather than find a verdict based on the evidence.

They may be good prosecutors and good defenders, but pre-Tribbers are not acting like jurors.

 

[OakWood]

9 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Actually it is mentioned indirectly in Rev 3:10, but there is really no compelling reason why it should be mentioned there at all. Revelation focuses primarily on the judgments to come upon the unbelieving and ungodly world. What you find is a series of judgments, but they have nothing to do with the Church.

The Resurrection/Rapture -- Christ coming for His saints -- is mentioned several times in the NT. You can start with John 14:1-3.  In fact the resurrection of the saints is a key doctrine in the Bible, so perhaps the deficiency is in your not have researched this fully.

Since Christ does not descend to earth at the Rapture but comes in *the air*strictly for His saints and then returns to Heaven with them, the Rapture is not a "coming" in the sense of coming down to earth.  So there are really only two comings of Christ.

And so should you, or anyone else. Since there is not a single occurrence of the word *Church* or *churches* after Revelation 3, it behooves every student of Scripture to ask why, when the rest of the NT speaks of the Church and churches all the time.  People simply don't get it that the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are NOT for the people of God, but for the unbelieving and the ungodly. This is so basic and so simply, yet some Christians can't seem to get their heads around this.

Since only God the Holy Spirit has the power to restrain Satan, and even the archangel Michael dared not rebuke Satan, but asked God to rebuke him, it follows that the only one holding back the full control of this world by Satan is God the Holy Spirit by His presence on earth and within the Church.

You seem to have forgotten that Noah and his family and Lot and his family were preserved from God's wrath. Christians are special because God considers them as special -- His own children who are also in the Body of Christ -- literally joined to Christ.

Maybe so.  But all Christians (and the whole world) should know that this Man of Sin will appear to deceive and control the whole world for 3 1/2 years. This disinterest does not invalidate the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. A lot of pastors and teachers are not interested in Bible prophecy either, and some denominations believe that nothing (or almost nothing) remains to be fulfilled, and the AC showed up in 70 AD.

Obviously this is a mistaken belief, and this is actually incorrect. No Pre-Tribber believes this.

This is pure fantasy.

I notice that you have completely misunderstood point number 6. Did you actually read what I had said? I told you that GOD PROTECTS THE RIGHTEOUS FROM HIS OWN JUDGEMENTS. The Great Tribulation is not a judgement of God..... I actually mentioned Noah so how can I have forgotten? . Go back and read it again. You have embarrassed yourself by not reading it.

We've had this discussion before in a previous thread and you didn't get it then so I'm not surprised that you don't get it now. Why do you insist on claiming that I said something that I did not? Don't tell me that I forgot something when I didn't, and I clearly explained this.

For the last time:

THE FLOOD WAS A JUDGEMENT OF GOD ....that's why Noah was protected from it. THE TRIBULATION IS NOT A JUDGEMENT OF GOD it is an action of evil, AND THAT'S WHY CHRISTIANS WILL RECEIVE NO PROTECTION FROM IT.

As for some of your other points:

You say that Christ does not descend to the Earth at the rapture but stays in the air so technically it's not a second coming. So because his feet do not touch the ground it's not a second coming even though he announces it with a shout..... he's not exactly subtle about it. So he comes back but he doesn't really come back but only sort of comes back.... he's still in the air so it doesn't count.

The Bible tells us that the restrainer will be gone. So if the Holy Spirit is the restrainer it will be gone - If the Holy Spirit is not here how can there be any new believers?

 

Actually, after your post I'm even less convinced that the pre-Trib rapture is true. I wanted pre-Tribbers to explain their position before I came to a full decision and you have done nothing to further their cause.

[Montana Marv]

All I see is the rest of mankind continuing to worship demons and idols made of gold, Silver, Bronze and wood. And this is the 5th Trumpet . If so Post Trib are all demon worshippers and some Pre Wrath are also.

So jump off the fence and begin worshipping demons is how I see it.

In Christ 

Montana Marv

[OakWood]

43 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

All I see is the rest of mankind continuing to worship demons and idols made of gold, Silver, Bronze and wood. And this is the 5th Trumpet . If so Post Trib are all demon worshippers and some Pre Wrath are also.

So jump off the fence and begin worshipping demons is how I see it.

In Christ 

Montana Marv

It doesn't really answer my ten points at all, it just avoids them. I only asked for one simple thing, just address the points that I have made.

There will be many people in the Trib, some believers some non-believers. Also if those who are alive during the Trib are demon-worshippers does this also include the ones who are beheaded and then later reign with Christ for a thousand years? And if so, why do demon-worshippers reign alongside Christ? It's not making any sense at all.

I asked pre-Tribbers to state their case, placate my fears and deal with my ten reservations - but so far I have had none of this.

[Ezra]

4 hours ago, OakWood said:

THE FLOOD WAS A JUDGEMENT OF GOD ....that's why Noah was protected from it. THE TRIBULATION IS NOT A JUDGEMENT OF GOD it is an action of evil, AND THAT'S WHY CHRISTIANS WILL RECEIVE NO PROTECTION FROM IT.

Because this was self-contradictory I simply ignored it.  Those who begin with a false premise end up with a false conclusion.  The Tribulation is clearly a judgement of God, but for you its almost a walk in the park.

[Steve_S]

I am noticing that this topic is getting a little heated and I have already seen a bit of getting personal between a few members going on. Please keep the Terms of Service in mind when posting. Being accusatory and debating intentions is something we want to entirely expunge from the forums. There are a few borderline posts between oak and ezra and I'd ask that you two make sure you are debating the topic and not the intentions or intelligence of each other.

Also, one comment that was not borderline was from Marv:

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

All I see is the rest of mankind continuing to worship demons and idols made of gold, Silver, Bronze and wood. And this is the 5th Trumpet . If so Post Trib are all demon worshippers and some Pre Wrath are also.

So jump off the fence and begin worshipping demons is how I see it.

In Christ 

Montana Marv

This was way out of line and, as such, Marv has been banned from the topic and issued a warning point.

Remember everybody, debate the subject, not the person, or people.

God bless,

Steve_S

[OakWood]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

Because this was self-contradictory I simply ignored it.  Those who begin with a false premise end up with a false conclusion.  The Tribulation is clearly a judgement of God, but for you its almost a walk in the park.

Well, if it's a judgement of God then God must be punishing the righteous - because he stops the righteous from buying and selling and he even has them beheaded for refusing to take the mark of the Beast!

Perhaps you think that when Nero threw the Christians to the lions, this was also a judgement of God. Do you think that the heathen Nero was working for the Lord and doing the Lord's work for him?

The Tribulation is an act of evil (allowed by God but not from God) . The judgement of God is the wrath that comes afterwards!

Do you believe that the anti-Christ and God are on the same side?

IF YOU CAN'T EVEN UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL then I really don't want to converse with you again. I'm surprised by you, I thought you were better than that, I really did.

[Esther4:14]

I really appreciate your honesty and the way you openly are sharing your reflections before forming a firm conclusion on the subject.  I think it takes a lot of courage and this is exactly what I believe we should have the freedoms to do without rebuke within the body co Christ because it is in this type of humility in our search of the scripthres that will help us all grow the most spiritually.  May He continue to bless you in your pursuit of truth.