PREDESTINATION

[Omegaman 3.0]

11 hours ago, WarriorforHim said:

Read the whole thing not just one paragraph.

I did read the whole thing, I quoted the one part that I took issue with, that "The term predestination the context of salvation literally means: knowing  who to choose", when it simply does not literally mean that. If you want to say that the implication of predestination, as scripture means it, that might be another topic, but we do not just get to change the meaning of words to suit the doctrines we like.

[DARRELX]

2 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

If I were to go down that road, there would be no Hell, everyone would be saved, after all, because I so loved the world etc. God has the power to save all, He has the authority to save all, He even paid the price to save all, and says that He desires all to be saved. It is interesting to conceive of an all-powerful God who seemingly sends most people to Hell, an outcome that He could prevent, it He is loving in the way that some think He should be, and is as powerful as some think He is.

The popular idea is that God would save everyone but He cannot force people to be saved. That God cannot interfere with mans free will. As Ezra said....

 

6 hours ago, RobertS said:

The Lord wants people to love Him freely: to choose who would and would not love Him would essentially place the fault of sin on God, as He could have simply made us to love Him without the ability to say "no". But then man would have been little more than a fleshly "robot", and it would not have been love at all. True love means the possibility of not loving, and that is what makes it true: you have the chance to walk away, but you want to be with that person because of who they are. And that is what God wanted.

 

It seems logical and reasonable and I do understand why many would believe that because I once did to.

[Ezra]

6 hours ago, DARRELX said:

With God we have to start with the understanding that God can do whatever He wants rather then with a belief in what we think God is morally obligated to do for what He has made.

This is totally false. While God is not limited in any way He DOES NOT violate His own word.  You ignored the three Bible truths which God has laid out in His Word as shown in my post, and to which He is committed. 

Selecting apostles is not the same as predestining men for salvation.  And Pharaoh's heart was hardened only AFTER he hardened his own heart (true for all sinners).

[WarriorforHim]

5 hours ago, DARRELX said:

The popular idea is that God would save everyone but He cannot force people to be saved. That God cannot interfere with mans free will. As Ezra said....

 

It seems logical and reasonable and I do understand why many would believe that because I once did to.

Predestination means that God created everyone to be with Him, but He also gives free will to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

[DARRELX]

I will say to anyone who can hear that the doctrine of election and salvation are not in contradiction.

In the same Chapter Jesus mentions both.

John  6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.  

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.  

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

What Jesus is saying is clear. 

All who believe on Him will be saved BUT only those chosen by the Father will believe on Him.

There is no contradiction but there we see the full work of election and salvation. 

Free will is a false doctrine however well meaning and is based on a small understanding of scripture. 

We all believe in free will at first but serious Bible study, will lead to a greater understanding. 

All objections to the doctrine of election are addressed by Paul in Romans  9:18-24

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

[woundeddog]

Did God force his will on Adam and Eve to sin against him? I don't think so. we must make a choice. We cant come to saving faith without the Holy Spirits help- but I think God wants people to willingly chose to love him He Knew from the start who would chose him-- does it mean we are better than others if we do? no-- I choose him not out of love but because I was afraid of hell-- love developed later. He knows who will and who wont. but even though he is sovereign I think its important for Him to let us make the choice.  Why do some choose yes and some choose no??? I haven't got a clue but I am sure He will explain it by and by

[DARRELX]

Are the examples that Armenians or pseudo Armenians give, really examples for free will. 

John 6:26-71 is a perfect example of how Calvinists and Armenians defend their theology.

Armenians will quote John  6:47

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

And Say see, God gives us free will, end of story.

The Calvinist will quote John 6:26-71 and say see the doctrine of election is Biblical.

Quoting one verse out of context is not good theology. 

Armenians are the one verse wonders. 

To understand John 6:47 you have to read John 6:26-71. 

23 minutes ago, woundeddog said:

Did God force his will on Adam and Eve to sin against him? I don't think so. 

Is Adam and Eves sin proof of free will. Did Adam and Eve have a choice to live. No! Did God ask them first? 

We can understand from scripture though that Adam and Eve were set up by God to fall because it says.

Ephesians  1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

God had chosen the Elect before the world was created. Therefore Adam and Eve had to fall so that the Elect could be holy and without blame before God.

Now why would God choose the elect to be Holy and without blame in Christ if there was not going to be a fall and how could God plan salvation before creation and before Adam and Eve sinned?

Adam and Eve were made to fall so that the Elect could be made righteous in Christ.

I know this is to hard for the one verse wonders, to much to ingest, to much to read, but to the Elect your eternal life in Christ Jesus by becoming like Christ Jesus was Gods ultimate plan from the beginning. Not to have people living in a garden naked but to have glorified saints sanctified by Christ into glorious heavenly bodies. 

[Ezra]

3 hours ago, DARRELX said:

Is Adam and Eves sin proof of free will. Did Adam and Eve have a choice to live. No! Did God ask them first? 

Study Creation and the Fall and make sure that you understand that not only did Adam and Eve have a choice to live, but received every possible benefit and blessing in order to live and also be in fellowship with God.  They had perfect free will, and all human beings can and do make free choices daily.

As to "Did God ask them first?" it is like asking "Did God ask you to be created?"  Totally meaningless.

If you want to see why Five Point Calvinism is false, just go to the thread titled "Calvinism versus Arminianism".  BTW you have not been spelling "Arminian" properly and the Armenians might take offence.

[Ezra]

3 hours ago, DARRELX said:

Adam and Eve were made to fall so that the Elect could be made righteous in Christ.

You won't find this in the Bible, and one should not invent doctrines out of thin air. As I mentioned above, kindly study Creation and the Fall in depth before posting.

[enoob57]

3 hours ago, Ezra said:

You won't find this in the Bible, and one should not invent doctrines out of thin air. As I mentioned above, kindly study Creation and the Fall in depth before posting.

In fact it takes sin and make it the necessary tool of God for expression and desire... I would not want this heart in God's Presence!!! Love, Steven