Salvation of indigenous people

[Reformed Baptist]

On 7/9/2016 at 3:59 PM, woundeddog said:

okay- once again I am not proposing new doctrine but just pondering something~~~~~

ROM 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed [it] unto them.
ROM 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
ROM 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

 

It seems to me that the Bible is saying that creation itself is enough witness of God to let a person make a choice of worshiping God or not.

Paul doesn't say that, he says that creation offers enough evidence to mean that no one has an excuse for not believing, however in 1:18 he makes it very clear human beings suppress that knowledge and he continues to explain how people pervert that knowledge. 

 

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Since we know that Jesus was the actual creator if an indigenous person who never heard the Bible Gospel but recognized that there was a Creator, wouldn't he in fact be trusting, or at least recognizing  Jesus Therefore being eligible for salvation by that fact alone??

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Consider what Paul says later in the same letter, Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? (NKJ) - unless a persons hears the gospel they cannot call on the name of the Lord and be saved. 

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we often hear the antichristian argument that how can God be a loving God if he sends people to hell just because they never heard the gospel--- it seems to me that maybe creation it self is enough witness for a person to believe in the Creator Jesus and be saved---- even if they didn't know what his name was~~~~

yes that passage from Romans indicates that people did reject creations witness but I would assume that some did not reject it~~~~

so, what do you guys think?????

 

The antichristian argument is just that - an antichristian argument - and it stems from a misuderstanding about the holiness of God and the sinfulness of men. the argument only has any weight if we believe something other then the biblical truths that (i) every single human being is a hell deserving sinner and but for his Grace God could justly condemn us to that eternity right now.   (ii) God is holy and just and cannot abide sin in his presence. To concede ground on either point is to try and argue someone into the kingdom using their own worldview. The truth is God is not unjust, none of us stand before him with an excuse that can be made, only those who are looking to Jesus will be saved, now the unbeliever can dismiss that truth and excuse his dismissal by saying that it is 'unfair' but one day he is going to be judged and one day he will acknowledge that the potter has the right to what he wants with the clay on his wheel - rather then worry about his false concept of fairness he needs to repent and believe and before he can worry about the salvation of others he needs to think about his own salvation. 

[Guest shiloh357]

On ‎7‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 9:59 AM, woundeddog said:

okay- once again I am not proposing new doctrine but just pondering something~~~~~

ROM 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed [it] unto them.
ROM 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
ROM 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

 

It seems to me that the Bible is saying that creation itself is enough witness of God to let a person make a choice of worshiping God or not.

Since we know that Jesus was the actual creator if an indigenous person who never heard the Bible Gospel but recognized that there was a Creator, wouldn't he in fact be trusting, or at least recognizing  Jesus Therefore being eligible for salvation by that fact alone??

we often hear the antichristian argument that how can God be a loving God if he sends people to hell just because they never heard the gospel--- it seems to me that maybe creation it self is enough witness for a person to believe in the Creator Jesus and be saved---- even if they didn't know what his name was~~~~

yes that passage from Romans indicates that people did reject creations witness but I would assume that some did not reject it~~~~

 

so, what do you guys think?????

Nature is what we call "general revelation."  Acknowledging a Creator isn't the same as trusting in that Creator for salvation.   Nature teaches us that there is a Creator with the power and wisdom to create the world and all it contains.   But nature does not tell you WHO that Creator is.   

It's like being in lost in a dark cave and finally seeing a pinhole of light.   The pinhole of light will lead you out of the cave if you move toward it.  In the same way,  the general revelation of nature will lead you to the Creator and we know that God will reveal himself to those who truly seek Him.  God is not hiding from anyone.    So God will provide a person who seeks him with more information, namely that which is in Scripture.  God will send ministers/missionaries to preach the Gospel to those who truly seek him.   He has promised in His word that those who seek him WILL find him.

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Reformed Baptist said:

Paul doesn't say that, he says that creation offers enough evidence to mean that no one has an excuse for not believing, however in 1:18 he makes it very clear human beings suppress that knowledge and he continues to explain how people pervert that knowledge. 

 

Consider what Paul says later in the same letter, Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? (NKJ) - unless a persons hears the gospel they cannot call on the name of the Lord and be saved. 

The antichristian argument is just that - an antichristian argument - and it stems from a misuderstanding about the holiness of God and the sinfulness of men. the argument only has any weight if we believe something other then the biblical truths that (i) every single human being is a hell deserving sinner and but for his Grace God could justly condemn us to that eternity right now.   (ii) God is holy and just and cannot abide sin in his presence. To concede ground on either point is to try and argue someone into the kingdom using their own worldview. The truth is God is not unjust, none of us stand before him with an excuse that can be made, only those who are looking to Jesus will be saved, now the unbeliever can dismiss that truth and excuse his dismissal by saying that it is 'unfair' but one day he is going to be judged and one day he will acknowledge that the potter has the right to what he wants with the clay on his wheel - rather then worry about his false concept of fairness he needs to repent and believe and before he can worry about the salvation of others he needs to think about his own salvation. 

Paul has never supported the position that some people will appear before the Lord of Lords and the Judge of the whole world and offered their good works and their bad works before a Judge strange to them, and that Jesus will weight them and to anyone whose good works wins the battle of the scale goes to Heaven and the other to Hell. 

This suggestion is against the Gospel altogether, against the new covenant, agaist the  consept of the new birth, the redemption by the blood of Jesus Christ , the Lamb of God . 

Against the consept of the new man in Christ, the new man who is the only one who is the co-heir of Heaven together with the Son of God, to whom God honor and gave him the Heaven as his inheritance. 

This is suggesting that a strange man who regardless of his background and his believes, who has not any knowledge of who Jesus Christ is, and the Authority of Jesus Christ , who never in his whole life believe in a Heavenly inheritance, and he lived his life to please the Lord of his beliefs , and expects  to be Judge by the Lord of his beliefs for he was one of his children, living under the blessing and the Judgement  of his Lord, and some had the belief and were expecting to come back on earth on another form of life, 

To cut it short, that these strange men will inherit heavens, or Jesus will welcome to Heaven the Children of another Lord, snach them from them and send them in Heavens a place they did not even know it exist and tell them from  now on you have a new Lord Jesus Christ, and that because the battle of the      scale was in favor of their good works.

And now I have the task to look into the old testament and find figurative teachings or events, or the words of the prophets , to justified the stand that how Jesus Christ will Judge a strange man, a man that does not belong to him and who has another Lord and who never heard  of Jesus, and does  not excpets to be Judge by Jesus, and how can he have the denial if the Gospell was not declared to him. 

I don't think that Jesus can even Judge a strange man in that situation and out of the body, in either one situation, Heaven or Hell, because it seems that he does not qualifies for either one. 

He has not believe or denied the Gospel because the Gospel was never preach to him . not by any believer, and not by the spirits that guide them, which were from the ocult. What do you expect those spirits to teach the Gospel, why were they commission by the Lord Jesus Christ, did he ask for their help to spread the Good news.

 

[Reformed Baptist]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Paul has never supported the position that some people will appear before the Lord of Lords and the Judge of the whole world and offered their good works and their bad works before a Judge strange to them, and that Jesus will weight them and to anyone whose good works wins the battle of the scale goes to Heaven and the other to Hell. 

I'm not sure I am following your post, your response seems to bear little relevance to what I wrote for there is no way my post can be read in a way that would lead someone to think I am advocating such as you seem to be suggesting I am advocating. 

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Paul has never supported the position that some people will appear before the Lord of Lords and the Judge of the whole world and offered their good works and their bad works before a Judge strange to them, and that Jesus will weight them and to anyone whose good works wins the battle of the scale goes to Heaven and the other to Hell.
 

X..

1 hour ago, Reformed Baptist said:

I'm not sure I am following your post, your response seems to bear little relevance to what I wrote for there is no way my post can be read in a way that would lead someone to think I am advocating such as you seem to be suggesting I am advocating. 

you did not say it that way, but there is something in your post that suggest that Jesus Christ is going to deal with people in this situation. And you suggested what he is going to do, and I don't think so that you made s fair evaluation. 

These people do not have the faith of Jesus Christ , but looking in their context and their specific circumstances, no one can say that they are unbelievers , within the meaning of having the Gospel preach and explain to them with some clarity , and decided not to believe . they don't have the faith of the Son of God, but they don't have the denial of the Son of God. 

The Gospel was never preach to them.

By looking at the creation they can not get the message that Son of God will come in the flesh and die for us and the rest. That not how the great commission goes. 

[WilliamL]

1n Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. ... 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

If God made provision for the dead to hear the Gospel once, he certainly is able to do it again. One way or another, everyone will get their chance to hear the Gospel, and either accept it or reject it.

[ghtan]

On 7/9/2016 at 10:59 PM, woundeddog said:

okay- once again I am not proposing new doctrine but just pondering something~~~~~

ROM 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed [it] unto them.
ROM 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
ROM 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

 

It seems to me that the Bible is saying that creation itself is enough witness of God to let a person make a choice of worshiping God or not.

Since we know that Jesus was the actual creator if an indigenous person who never heard the Bible Gospel but recognized that there was a Creator, wouldn't he in fact be trusting, or at least recognizing  Jesus Therefore being eligible for salvation by that fact alone??

we often hear the antichristian argument that how can God be a loving God if he sends people to hell just because they never heard the gospel--- it seems to me that maybe creation it self is enough witness for a person to believe in the Creator Jesus and be saved---- even if they didn't know what his name was~~~~

yes that passage from Romans indicates that people did reject creations witness but I would assume that some did not reject it~~~~

 

so, what do you guys think?????

I think what the passage means is that God has ensured that there is enough evidence in creation to show us that there is a God who created everything and so we should not worship an idol instead (v 23). It does not suggest that we can be saved that way.

Having said that, I believe that if that knowledge leads some people to worship the God who created the universe without knowing who he is, and they have not heard the gospel, God will deal with them according to what they know and not reject them simply because they have not received Jesus. Most will fail such an evaluation but I don't think it necessarily means that all will. The latter might be given some sort of second chance. 

[Reformed Baptist]

9 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

X..

you did not say it that way, but there is something in your post that suggest that Jesus Christ is going to deal with people in this situation. And you suggested what he is going to do, and I don't think so that you made s fair evaluation. 

If that is what you think then you need to go back and read it carefully, I was very clear that the the unbeliever needs to repent! 

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These people do not have the faith of Jesus Christ , but looking in their context and their specific circumstances, no one can say that they are unbelievers , within the meaning of having the Gospel preach and explain to them with some clarity , and decided not to believe . they don't have the faith of the Son of God, but they don't have the denial of the Son of God. 

The Gospel was never preach to them.

By looking at the creation they can not get the message that Son of God will come in the flesh and die for us and the rest. That not how the great commission goes. 

 

Firstly you need to look again at your definition of believer and unbeliever - an unbeliever is not someone who simply denies the Son of God, an unbeliever is someone who does not faith in the son of God to save them. 

Secondly, again I repeat, my post was clear and you are misreading it. Now I have spoke clearly once, and I have clarified my position twice, if you continue to refuse to acknowledge what I am saying and insist on taking your 'perceived' meaning to be what I actually meant then there is nothing I can do about that however to my mind it is bearing witness.    

[Guest Robert]

21 hours ago, Bluebird said:

The words of a man of an Amazonian tribe who came to Salvation. Maybe this will help...

 

 

Excellent video, Bluebird! I have read "End of  the Spear" and am very familiar with the Saint family and their time in Ecuador with the Waodani tribe.

[RustyAngeL]

10 hours ago, RobertS said:

Excellent video, Bluebird! I have read "End of  the Spear" and am very familiar with the Saint family and their time in Ecuador with the Waodani tribe.

I have heard of these people too.  So amazing how God can change a heart. 

Blessings, RustyAngeL