Christian Conditionalism vs Traditionalism (Rethinking Hell)

[Ezra]

14 hours ago, Yowm said:

I believe Stott and Pinnock (also Conditionalists) have fallen prey to it.

Clark Pinnock turned apostate a long time ago.  Not too familiar with John Stott.  And since the cults deny the Deity of Christ, all they have is humanistic logic to come up with their false doctrines. But it is one thing to "fall prey" to something, and another thing to actively promote false teachings.

[Omegaman 3.0]

4 hours ago, Ezra said:

Not too familiar with John Stott. 

That is kind of surprising, since he was one of the most influential commentators evangelicals have ever produced. Like many before him, and like many will after him, he has made some errors here and there, but he has also had tremendous insights on the word of God, that few have matched. I like to abhor what is evil, and cling to what is good. I don't take to his belief on annihilationism, but I do not toss the baby out with the bathwater either.

[Ezra]

3 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

That is kind of surprising, since he was one of the most influential commentators evangelicals have ever produced.

I stick with good ole' Calvinistic Matthew Henry.

[Omegaman 3.0]

10 minutes ago, Ezra said:

I stick with good ole' Calvinistic Matthew Henry.

or . . . at least you do when not expressing eschatological belief, but yeah, Henry is good, once you get past the language barrier!

By the way, didn't you do a topic (since closed) about Hell once? I was trying to find that, since I think it had some great points in it. This ring a bell with you, or am I thinking of someone else?

[Omegaman 3.0]

5 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

By the way, didn't you do a topic (since closed) about Hell once?

Never mind, I think I found it! Would you mind terribly much, if I took some risk and quoted your OP (in it's entirety) on that thread Ezra?

[Ezra]

29 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Never mind, I think I found it! Would you mind terribly much, if I took some risk and quoted your OP (in it's entirety) on that thread Ezra?

Please feel free.

[Omegaman 3.0]

 

BIG GIANT NOTICE!!!

 

BIG GIANT NOTICE!!!

There, that is better!

I am about to post a post, that was originally made by EZRA on Jan 26, 2016. The thread was VERY active, extraordinarily so. The debate became very heated, very quickly, and there was no way that the moderators could arrest it's development. We had to shut the thread down, and a lot of good posts we lost in the process.

The topic was not the problem, the passion of the posters was. When people become ugly and insulting, and question each other's salvation for not sharing the same opinions as others, a thread becomes inappropriate for a Christian forum and more importantly, it reflects badly those who claim to be disciples of Jesus, and by extension it reflects badly on Jesus, because as His body, we are ambassadors carrying His message.

We (beleivers)  are the family of God, and we as brothers and sisters, might have some family squabbles now and again. However, what is not an option, is failing to love one another and to respect one another as coheirs with Christ. So . . . 

Here is the deal. The preivous thread was so corrupted, it is really beyond repair. I know, because I tried. It was really beyond reasonable repair. However, this time we have a tool that we had not previously employed. If a person gets out of line here, they will simply be banned from the thread, It is not about what your opinion is, it is about how you treat each other. Step out of line, you are banned from the thread, we do not have the time to babysit. So, if you want to participate, then check your post and be sure it is dignified, BEFORE you hit that enter key.

What follows, is brother Exra's un-edited original post. He went to a lot of trouble to put this information, and I hope you appreciate that fact whether or not you agree with his conclusions.  He said:

*******************************************************************************

There are many heterodox groups (such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists) who reject the Bible doctrine of Hell (the Lake of Fire).  We also have so-called “evangelicals” (read theological liberals) such as Clark Pinnock who reject this Bible doctrine.  And now we have several posters on Worthy who are attempting to “prove” that there is no eternal Hell where sinners are in conscious everlasting torment.  One has to wonder what they gain from misleading others, since they will give account for every wrong word.

So the only way to refute false doctrine is with Bible truth, and I trust that many Christians will take heed to what the Bible actually states (NOT what we would like to believe, since if it were up to us, not one of us would want to believe that there is a real Hell).  The Bible must be taken in its plain, literal sense unless it clear that we are looking at a figure of speech, a metaphor, or a symbol. Also, Scripture must be compared with Scripture to determine Bible truth.

Sheol/Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus: Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) refer to the same place in “the heart of the earth” where the souls of the departed and unsaved dead go to await their final judgment, whereas Gehenna (Greek) refers to “the Lake of Fire” which is in “outer darkness”, and is presently unoccupied. Tartarus is reserved strictly for “the angels which kept not their first estate” and are also awaiting their final judgment. The confusion arises because the translators of the KJV used the English word “hell” indiscriminately, rather than transliterating the different words to distinguish each place. However “everlasting” means “everlasting”, and “eternal” means “eternal”, and no amount of semantic games will change that.

HELL WAS CREATED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS, BUT IS ALSO FOR THE CURSED, AND A PLACE OF EVERLASTING FIRE

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mt 25:41).

HELL IS IN “OUTER DARKNESS”, WHERE THERE IS WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 8:11,12)

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 22:13)

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 25:30)

HELL IS FOR THE WICKED AND FOR THOSE THAT FORGET GOD

The wicked shall be turned into hell [Sheol], and all the nations that forget God (Ps 9:17).

HELL IS A PLACE OF DAMNATION FOR THE WICKED AND THE UNBELIEVING

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Mt 23:33).

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:16).

HELL AND EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION GO TOGETHER

Hell [Sheol] and destruction [abbadown = perishing] are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men? (Prov 15:11).

Hell [Sheol] and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied. (Prov 27:20).

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: (Mt 7:13).

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thess 1:9). [Note: the word “perish” (or “destruction”) means eternal ruin, not annihilation, because it is “eternal destruction”. See John 3:15,16]  [Question: Why would Christ need to die for sinners, if eventually they would all be annihilated (wiped out) anyhow?]

HELL IS A PLACE OF “DEVOURING FIRE” AND “EVERLASTING BURNINGS” FOR SINNERS AND HYPOCRITES

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? (Isa 33:14).

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Mt 5:22).

HELL IS A PLACE OF “UNQUENCHABLE FIRE” OR “EVERLASTING HELL FIRE”

Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Mt 3:12).

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. (Mt 18:8,9).

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mk 9:43-48) [Question: If Hell is not eternal torment, why would Christ repeat His words over and over again? The corrupt Bibles have expunged these words of warning.]

THE “TARES” (THE WICKED OR UNSAVED) ARE BURNED IN A “FURNACE OF FIRE”

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn... The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth... So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 13:30,38-42; 49-50).

BODIES (ALONG WITH SOULS) ARE CAST INTO HELL

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna]. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and notthat thy whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna]. (Mt 5:29,30).

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mt 10:28). [“Fear Him” refers to God]

HELL IS A PLACE OF “EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT”

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Mt 25:45,46). [Naysayers please note the precise contrast between “everlasting punishment” and “life eternal”].

EVEN HADES (NOT ETERNAL) IS A PLACE OF TORMENT AND FLAMES

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell[Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Lk 16:22-24).[Naysayers: This is NOT a parable, since parables don’t have actual people in dialogue with each other]. Note: When Scripture says that death and Hades (not Hell) were cast into the Lake of Fire, Death and Hades are personifications for all the unsaved dead which are occupants of Hades, and are ultimately cast into the Lake of Fire. Death and Hades are also personified in Rev 6:8.

HELL (THE LAKE OF FIRE) IS A PLACE OF ETERNAL TORMENT

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:9-11).

THE UNHOLY TRINITY WILL BE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone... And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 19:20;20:10)

THE UNSAVED AND ALL SINNERS WILL BE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire... But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 20:15; 21:8).

[Guest shiloh357]

This a continuation of a discussion from another thread about Conditional immortality vs. Traditionalism.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, LuftWaffle said:

I'm not sure I see the problem with accepting Christ leading to eternal immortality, but rejecting Christ resulting in eternal death.

I want to be very clear that I'm not arguing cessation of existence. My view is that the unsaved will be killed/perish/destroyed, whether or not bits of their corpses remain are irrelevant to me. So, I'm not arguing for complete and utter cessation of existence, I'm simply arguing that everlasting life is a gift to the saved and that the unsaved will experience cessation of life.

I am confused.  Do you believe that those who go to hell will suffer eternally and consciously?

[Guest BacKaran]

Or are you saying there is hell that kills then nothing?