The Jewishness of the Olivet Discourse

[Retrobyter]

The account of the Olivet Discourse or Yeshua`s (Jesus') Speech on future events, which primarily occurred on the Mount of Olives (Har haZeitiym), is found in Matthew 24:1-25:46, Mark 13:1-37, and Luke 21:5-36. (Some say that we should add into this list Luke 17:22-37, but although some of His teachings in chapter 17 were repeated in the Olivet Discourse, this chapter does NOT occur on that mountain. Instead, it happened on the way to Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) from the north before they arrived at Jericho (Yericho) (Luke 17:11; Luke 18:31, 35).

I hope to show any reader who's interested the Jewishness of the Olivet Discourse and why that means that SOME (not all) of the prophecies Yeshua` pronounced were fulfilled in the first century, probably close to 66 A.D., which was still in the future from when He pronounced these prophecies.

First, every one of the Twelve were children of Israel as Yeshua` Himself was of the tribe of Yhudah (Judah). Thus, Yeshua` was a Yhudiy (meaning "of or belonging to Yhudah"), a true "Jew." Ya`aqov (Jacob), later renamed "Israel," had twelve sons and a daughter. Each of these sons had a huge family, a tribe or a clan, and the tribe from whom the kings of Israel would come is this tribe of Yhudah. (This gives more meaning to Yeshua`s statement to the Samaritan woman at the well when He said, "Salvation is of the Jews" in John 4:22.)

Second, Yeshua` warns His talmidiym (disciples; students) that there would come false "christs" and false "prophets." To this point, there were ONLY prophets from the children of Israel, and when Yeshua` mentioned "the prophets," He was referring to the prophets of the Tanakh (the OT). The term "Christ," coming from the Greek word "christos," was a translation word for the Hebrew word "mashiyach," transliterated to "Messias" and "Messiah" in English. Both words mean "the one ANOINTED," which also means "the one PAINTED, RUBBED or MASSAGED," referring to one who was PAINTED or RUBBED with the Holy Anointing Oil, described in Exodus 30:22-33, being MASSAGED for service; one SELECTED or CHOSEN by God for service and so demonstrated. Yeshua` recognized as the "Son of David," and the "Messiah of God," was foretold to be the ONE who was to become the King of Israel, through David's line. "Where is he that is born King of the Jews?" the Magi asked.

So, these "false christs" who were coming were liars who called themselves (or had others call them) "the Messiah." To whom would that make a difference if not to the children of Israel, particularly the Jews - members of His own tribe?

That's a start; more to come.

[WilliamL]

On 7/26/2016 at 8:49 PM, Retrobyter said:

Yeshua` warns His talmidiym (disciples; students) that there would come false "christs" and false "prophets." To this point, there were ONLY prophets from the children of Israel...

Perhaps I misunderstand your point, but there certainly were prophets outside of Israel before and during the first century AD. Paul ran into one of them, a Greek pythoness, during his ministry.

[George]

I'm definitely interested in your study Retro!   Keep it coming!

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Perhaps I misunderstand your point, but there certainly were prophets outside of Israel before and during the first century AD. Paul ran into one of them, a Greek pythoness, during his ministry.

Shalom, WilliamL.

Sure, there were also "false prophets" - lying prophets from other religious systems, but they held little sway over those who knew the TRUE God, YHWH, frequently "translated" as "the LORD," although YHWH is His NAME, not His title. 

It's just like lying: If you want to deceive someone, the BEST lie is not a complete falsehood, but a falsehood well sprinkled with the truth.

In the same way, the "best" false prophet is one who claims to be speaking for YHWH, not some Greek god or goddess, especially when trying to deceive the children of Israel. The children of Israel KNEW to avoid THESE foreign charlatans, but a "false prophet" who claimed to be speaking for God was harder to detect.

[WilliamL]

5 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

In the same way, the "best" false prophet is one who claims to be speaking for YHWH, not some Greek god or goddess, especially when trying to deceive the children of Israel. The children of Israel KNEW to avoid THESE foreign charlatans, but a "false prophet" who claimed to be speaking for God was harder to detect.

True, for the first century AD in Judah. Not so today, at least among the diaspora. Not so among the early Gentile Church. But since you are wanting to confine Jesus's prophecy to Judah of the first century only, point taken. So, like George says, bring it on!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, everyone.

Finally have a little time!

Some have suggested that the Olivet Discourse found in Luke 21 took place in the Temple and involved a different set of questions. That's not the case. How do I know this? It's more from the composite harmony between the accounts in the Greek than from any one biblical source.

Background: I've always been fascinated with harmonies of the Gospel accounts. I found some faults with all of them, but the best sources to me were A.T. Robertson's Harmony of the Gospels, and Davies' Harmony of the Gospels, edited by Benjamin Davies. After beginning to learn Greek and reading the Olivet Discourse accounts in the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), I discovered how very close the Greek versions were to one another. They are so obviously closer in Greek than in their English translations. Sometimes, a single missing or added word in the Greek can cause a completely different translation into the English.

A case in point, consider Matthew 24:25 vs. Mark 13:23b:

The Greek of Matthew's account is "Idou proeireeka humin," while Mark's account adds the one word "panta," "Idou proeireeka humin panta." Their interpretations are (in the KJV):

Matthew 24:25
25 Behold, I have told you before.
KJV

Mark 13:23b
23 ... behold, I have foretold you all things.
KJV

It finally occurred to me that one should harmonize the Greek versions FIRST, and THEN translate the composite into English.

I have no doubt that the questions could have been asked twice, once in the Temple setting and again upon the Mount of Olives, but Yeshua`s answer? No, there was only ONE answer given by Yeshua`. Indeed, to prevent Himself from having to whisper, "Not here," they were already leaving the Temple mount and heading for the Mount of Olives. However, why would He repeat Himself using almost THE SAME WORDS to EXACTLY THE SAME PEOPLE in less than an hour? He wouldn't have!

Here's the Initial part of Yeshua` answer in (Matthew/Mark/Luke) in the Greek:

"Blepete mee (tis humas planeesee/tis humas planeesee/paneetheete).
Polloi gar eleusontai epi too onomati mou legontes ( /hoti/hoti), 'Egoo eimi (ho Christos/ / ).' "

This is translated respectively,

Matthew 24:4-5
4 ... Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; ....
KJV

Mark 13:5-6
5 ... Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; ....
KJV

Luke 21:8
8 ... Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ ...
KJV

After this, in all three accounts, Yeshua` said, "ye shall hear of wars and (reports of wars/reports of wars/commotion)."

So, let's just put the little piece of fiction, namely that Luke's account is somehow different, away. It doesn't work.

[RustyAngeL]

On 7/28/2016 at 2:45 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, WilliamL.

Sure, there were also "false prophets" - lying prophets from other religious systems, but they held little sway over those who knew the TRUE God, YHWH, frequently "translated" as "the LORD," although YHWH is His NAME, not His title. 

It's just like lying: If you want to deceive someone, the BEST lie is not a complete falsehood, but a falsehood well sprinkled with the truth.

In the same way, the "best" false prophet is one who claims to be speaking for YHWH, not some Greek god or goddess, especially when trying to deceive the children of Israel. The children of Israel KNEW to avoid THESE foreign charlatans, but a "false prophet" who claimed to be speaking for God was harder to detect.

I am always up for learning new things.  Keep it coming!

Blessings,RustyAngeL

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, everyone!

We've established actually four points so far: First, that Yeshua` and His disciples were all children of Israel.
Second, that there would come "false Messiahs" and "false prophets," presumably posing as prophets of God, pointing to those "Messiahs."
Third, that Luke, like Matthew and Mark, all speak about the discourse that Yeshua` gives upon Har HaZeitiym (the Mount of Olives), and 
Fourth, there are NOT two separate questions or events in view.

Fifth, there are certain contextual keys that make no sense outside of the culture and times of the first-century Jewish city, Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), specifically what is referred to today as the "Old City":

a) As I was saying to Marcus O'Reillius in his topic of "Sequence-of-Events Analysis,"

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

(17) Let him which is on the housetop.—The houses in the streets of Jerusalem were built in a continuous line, and with flat roofs, so that a man might pass from house to house without descending into the street until he came to some point near the wall or gate of the city, and so make his escape. At a moment of danger (in this case that arising from the factions within the city, rather than the invaders without), any delay might prove fatal. Men were to escape as though their life were “given them for a prey” (Jeremiah 45:5), without thinking of their goods or chattels.

and

Benson Commentary

Matthew 24:17-19. Let him who is on the house-top not come down — It is well known that the houses of the Jews, as well as those of the ancient Greeks and Romans, were flat on the top, for them to walk upon, and had usually stairs on the outside, by which they might ascend and descend without coming into the house. In the walled cities, these flat-roofed houses usually formed continued terraces from one end of the city to the other, which terraces terminated at the gates. The meaning therefore here is, Let not him who is walking on the house-top come down to take any thing out of his house; but let him instantly pursue his course along the tops of houses, and escape out of the city gate as fast as he possibly can. Neither let him which is in the field, &c. — Our Saviour makes use of these expressions to intimate, that their flight must be as sudden and hasty as Lot’s was out of Sodom. And the Christians escaping just as they did was the more providential, because afterward all egress from the city was prevented. And wo unto them that are with child, &c. — For such will not be in a condition to flee, neither will they be well able to endure the distress and hardships of the siege. This wo was sufficiently fulfilled in the cruel slaughters which were made both of the women and children, and particularly in that grievous famine which so miserably afflicted Jerusalem during the siege. See notes on Deuteronomy 28:53-57.

This makes SENSE in a city with walls. It does NOT make sense in our times and cultures with our sprawling cities without walls! Even Jerusalem today is not confined to the "Old City" which does have walls!

Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) today is a sprawling metropolis with high-rise buildings and without walls (although it does have a security fence with check points to limit terrorism). Only the small section of the city called the "Old City" still has walls.

So, if such a city was attacked today, it would make no sense to stay on one's "house-top [and] not come down!" However, in the first century A.D., it made perfectly good sense for one to escape from the walled city as described above in the commentaries quoted.

b) Yeshua` said (translated into the Greek accounts), "Tote hoi en tee Ioudaia feugetoosan eis ta oree...." (Matthew 24:16; Mark 13:14b; Luke 21:21) Translated, this becomes, "Then those in [the] Yhudah let-them-flee into the mountains."

Another such reference is that in which Yeshua` told them to "flee to the mountains." While a mountainous area, particularly one riddled with caves, is still somewhat effective today when one is on the run, it was even MORE effective against the vast armies of the Romans in the first century which were limited to war machines and burdened horses that did better on flat terrain. Furthermore, with drones, satellites, night vision goggles, heat-seaking missiles, etc., running off to the mountains is NOT a very smart decision these days.

c) Yeshua` said (translated into the Greek accounts), "Proseuchesthe de hina mee geneetai hee fugee humoon cheimoonos [meede en sabbatoo]...." (Matthew 24:20; Mark 13:18.) Translated, "But pray so that your flight may not be in winter [nor in Shabbat (Sabbath)]." Who else but children of Israel would even CARE that they were running away on a Shabbat, a Sabbath day, a day when traveling distances were limited by Law, as well as limited to the amount of work a person could do?!

Yerushalayim may not be in the far north where snow and ice are prevalent during the winter, but it IS on some mountain peaks! It doesn't often snow in the winter in Yerushalayim, but it DOES on occasion, and cold and icy conditions are much more frequent in the winter. It would be hard to run away when you're slipping and sliding, trying to get traction!

That's enough for today, but one should be recognizing just how much this whole discourse was geared for the first-century Jewish society.

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

That's enough for today, but one should be recognizing just how much this whole discourse was geared for the first-century Jewish society.

I have pointed this out several times -- that the Olivet Discourse PRIMARILY concerns Israel, the Temple, Jerusalem, Judah, and the Jewish Remnant until the Second Coming of Christ.  It makes no reference to the Church or the Rapture.  However it does include worldwide events which correspond to the first four seals of Revelation.

[Retrobyter]

1 minute ago, Ezra said:

I have pointed this out several times -- that the Olivet Discourse PRIMARILY concerns Israel, the Temple, Jerusalem, Judah, and the Jewish Remnant until the Second Coming of Christ.  It makes no reference to the Church or the Rapture.  However it does include worldwide events which correspond to the first four seals of Revelation.

Shabbat shalom, Ezra.

... And, yet, well-meaning Christians STILL use it as though it was all to be fulfilled in the future! That's the whole point of this thread!

I am working with the details of this Olivet Discourse to show that much of this discourse has ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED and WON'T be fulfilled again!