Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[S.T. Ranger]

Continued from post #304.....

We see the second woe pass here.

Revelation 11:¹¹ But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. ¹² Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

¹³ At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

¹⁴ The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

This is the passage where we see the two witnesses resurrected. This coincides with the 6th trumpet as previously shown. Again we see this very specific hour mentioned. Each resurrection mentioned in Revelation all point to the same place, precisely where John says the first resurrection occurs. Just prior to the millenium, at the conclusion of the 6th day of Daniel's seventieth week/ the beginning of the 7th day, or the last day.

And what happened on the 6th day in the beginning?

Genesis 1:²⁵ God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:²⁷ So God created mankind in his own image,

in the image of God he created them;

male and female he created them.

Genesis 1:³⁰ And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

³¹ God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

The breath of life in the beginning, and we saw the breath of life for the end with the resurrection of the two witnesses above, eternal life. Also take note of the command they were given, "Come up here." Isn't that what we are expecting to hear as well?

I believe the specific day and hour refer to the last day, and an hour within that day. I believe that day is the millenium. What all of this tells me is that Jesus will come like a thief at the very beginning of the final day, Satan is bound at the same time, he is released for this final hour within that day. This would include the Fall of Babylon, which chapter 18 tells us happens in a specific hour of a specific day. This would also include the battle of Armageddon, where we see the enemy gather immediately following the Lord's announcement that He comes like a thief.

The final woe is attached to the 7th trumpet as we've seen, which is also the last trumpet to be sounded, and we see these things associated with it.

Revelation 10:⁵ Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. ⁶ And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! ⁷ But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

I Corinthians 15:⁵⁰ I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. ⁵¹ Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— ⁵² in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

All of these things tie together, and they all point to the same place at the same time. These 6th and 7th judgements are happening rapidly, just as we were told they would by Isaiah, whom Paul pointed us to in Romans below.

Romans 9:²⁷ Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,

only the remnant will be saved.

²⁸ For the Lord will carry out

his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”

God is not cruel, following the resurrection where John places it, and in alignment with all the signs given, we see this following the 6th trumpet, which indicates this is the result of the second woe.

Revelation 9:

²⁰ The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. ²¹ Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

There are only those opposed to God left for this final day, the Day of the Lord, when He will rule all the nations with an "iron scepter." Why the iron scepter? To finish the battle for good. That is precisely what we see happen on that last day. We are following Him as He finishes off sin, this is our reign on this earth. All of His children are following Him as this happens, and at the conclusion of the day those who died outside His grace will be resurrected and judged.

Matthew chapter 24 wraps up where we have weeping and gnashing of teeth. Chapter 25 consists of the three parables which indicate three different types of judgements. This wraps up the answer to the disciple's second question to Jesus, as to where the age ended. That is twice that Jesus specifically tells us the end of the age occurs after the Great White Throne judgement, as illustrated in the final verse of the chapter.

Matthew 25:⁴⁶ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

In chapter 15 of I Corinthians, we see Paul break down the resurrection, beginning with the resurrection of Jesus, then the resurrection of the dead, and then the resurrection body itself. When he is speaking about the resurrection of the dead, he writes this.

I Corinthians 15:²² For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. ²³ But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. ²⁴ Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. ²⁵ For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. ²⁶ The last enemy to be destroyed is death. ²⁷ For he “has put everything under his feet.”

Scripture establishes a clear order for the resurrection of the dead, right here. It begins with Jesus, then the firstfruits, and then when he comes, those who belong to Him. And who belongs to Him? His sheep. This is the order we will be resurrected in, this is also confirmed by Paul several more times in the book of Romans.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Romans 2:⁹ There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; ¹⁰ but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. ¹¹ For God does not show favoritism.

In short, to convince me that this is all coincidence is a monumental task in itself, but that will be easy compared to convincing me that Jesus gave us bad directions. The signs He gave us are clear, what He attaches them to are clear as well. The sign of the thief is attached to the most vivid portrayal of the rapture in all of scripture, there is no doubt that is what He is referring to. Paul and John each invoke this sign into their writings.

I will close this post with what I see as the most beautiful depiction of the rapture from Revelation.

Revelation 14:¹⁴ I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. ¹⁵ Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” ¹⁶ So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

We see Jesus right where we are told we will meet Him, on a cloud, waiting for God the Father to say it is time. In the twinkling of an eye we will be with Him, and on our way to finish the job.

Revelation 22:²⁰ He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

²¹ The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.

Hello wingnut, just going to make a few comments due to the fact I am leaving town this afternoon and am about of time.

First, while I can appreciate an association of the Sixth Day with the Six Judgment/s, I would remind you that it is still the sixth, not the seventh, which I also see in the Millennial Kingdom, meaning, the Kingdom can be viewed as the "rest" which this current universe will receive prior to passing away and yielding to the new heavens and earth. The Sixth Judgment/s cannot be correlated to the sixth of any of the three judgments, though, because they are all within the Tribulation and prior to Christ's Return, by which we might correlate His Return to the Seventh Day.

Secondly, Christ does not Return during any of the Sixth Judgments.

Third, while both Paul's teaching and the Seventh Trumpet mention a trumpet, we have to acknowledge that it is just a fact that Christ does not return at the Seventh Trumpet's sounding, for there are still the Seven Vial Judgments left, which I believe are unleashed when the Seventh Trumpet is sounding, that last Trumpet being, not Christ's Return, but the Third Woe itself. Thus showing the weakness of trying to make the last trump Paul taught about (which is the final trumpet call for the Church) the Seventh Trumpet, where we see neither Christ's Return (which is given in Revelation 19) nor the end of the Tribulation, which would correspond, if we take the view of the Millennial Kingdom being the promised rest (physically) promised to Isrrael and the "seventh day" (which I do).

There are only those opposed to God left for this final day, the Day of the Lord, when He will rule all the nations with an "iron scepter." Why the iron scepter? To finish the battle for good. That is precisely what we see happen on that last day. We are following Him as He finishes off sin, this is our reign on this earth. All of His children are following Him as this happens, and at the conclusion of the day those who died outside His grace will be resurrected and judged.

When Christ returns there will be, physically, both believing and unbelieving who will be separated. The unbelieving will go into eternal punishment (which begins by being cast into Sheol/Hades and culminates one thousand years later in the Lake of Fire) and the believing will, physically, enter into the Kingdom.

In chapter 15 of I Corinthians, we see Paul break down the resurrection, beginning with the resurrection of Jesus, then the resurrection of the dead, and then the resurrection body itself. When he is speaking about the resurrection of the dead, he writes this.

I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”

Scripture establishes a clear order for the resurrection of the dead, right here. It begins with Jesus, then the firstfruits, and then when he comes, those who belong to Him. And who belongs to Him? His sheep.

This reference to resurrection reaches into the eternal state, and is not a timeline for the Tribulation. Within that framework we have no less than one thousand and seven years. Where the Church is raptured cannot be designated by this passage.

This is the order we will be resurrected in, this is also confirmed by Paul several more times in the book of Romans.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Nor does this establish a sequence to the Rapture, or resurrection at all, for here Paul maintains that it is to the Jew first, not in the sense of a rapture or even an individual salvation, but even as he states here:

Romans 2:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

...Israel is not disassociated with salvation in Christ, but have their roots prior to the establishment of the New Covenant and the beginning of salvation in Christ. They did not receive salvation in Christ prior to the Cross and Pentecost, but, they precede those that are saved by the Gospel. It is the same principle we see in Romans 11, where Israel has not been cast of, but that they precede the wild branches grafted in.

And sorry for repeating this verse, but I thought it good to see it in relation to the previous verse with a different perspective clearly attached for the purpose of consideration.

Romans 2:9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

Again, this is not a sequential timeline given for the Rapture, nor is this individual, but simply takes into account that Israel preceded the Church and God has dealt with them first.

IF this did establish the Jew being first in anything, we would then establish God as being a respecter of persons, which is not the case when we have the Church in view, and salvation in Christ, the twain have been made one.

In short, to convince me that this is all coincidence is a monumental task in itself, but that will be easy compared to convincing me that Jesus gave us bad directions. The signs He gave us are clear, what He attaches them to are clear as well. The sign of the thief is attached to the most vivid portrayal of the rapture in all of scripture, there is no doubt that is what He is referring to. Paul and John each invoke this sign into their writings.

Again, the "sign" is the actual return of Christ. For those in rebellion against God, who are under the power of Antichrist and strong delusion of God, when the destruction that takes place at His return occurs, they will never know what hit them. At least, they will not see it coming. The soldier in the trenches will be under the impression that he is on the side of right, which the Return of Christ will dispel that immediately.

I will close this post with what I see as the most beautiful depiction of the rapture from Revelation.

Revelation 14:14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

Two primary reasons not to view this as a picture of the Rapture: first, it occurs while the Tribulation is still in process, and secondly, we note...

Revelation 14:13-16

King James Version (KJV)

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

In view is the distinction between those that die in the Lord and those that come into His judgment in wrath.

Now we contrast that with the second reaping and we see that:

Revelation 14:17-20

King James Version (KJV)

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

...again two points of interest, the first being that we see the use of "another" which indicates the reaping of the first was done by an Angel, rather than the Lord, and secondly, again, in view is death...not resurrection, not rapture.

We see Jesus right where we are told we will meet Him, on a cloud, waiting for God the Father to say it is time. In the twinkling of an eye we will be with Him, and on our way to finish the job.

So we have Christ receiving commands from...an Angel?

Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.

And let's see Who and who, lol, are mentioned at the end of Revelation:

Revelation 22:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This can be said because those that have overcome are not in need of the invitation, because they have entered into salvation already. This is, I believe, a strong indication that the Church will not go through the Tribulation.

And again, sorry for the brief response. Look forward to your replies to the points brought up, and thanks for the responses you have given.

God bless.

[Guest]

 

Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

 

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. John 11:23-24

 

Keep in mind, brother Joe, that at this time the Rapture is yet a Mystery.

 

Martha understand the foundational teachings of the resurrection of the dead,

 

but has no understanding of the resurrection the Lord

 

will bestow upon those believing on His name,

 

and no understanding of the Rapture.

 

 

Beloved, I Have Little Knowledge Of What Sister Martha May Or May Not Have Understood

 

Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. John 11:5

 

Except That She Sat Directly Under Jesus As Her Teacher

 

Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house. John 11:20

 

So, If Her Creator Did Not Correct Her

 

But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said,

 

Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.

 

And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:

 

But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. Luke 10:40-42

 

Neither Would

 

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. John 11:25

 

I

 

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,

 

but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,

 

and shall reign with him

 

a thousand years. Revelation 20:5-6

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved

 

Every word of God is pure:

 

he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

 

Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

 

~

 

PS: Brother I Eagerly Look Forward To Your Many Posts

 

As I Do To The Other Members Of Worthy

 

And I Want To Say, You

 

Are A Blessing

 

~

 

Keep On Keeping On

 

Post Early Post Often

 

And Always Point To Jesus

 

For Your Posts Are Read World-Wide

 

By As Many As 200 Or More Readers In Any Given Hour

[S.T. Ranger]

 

Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

 

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. John 11:23-24

 

Keep in mind, brother Joe, that at this time the Rapture is yet a Mystery.

 

Martha understand the foundational teachings of the resurrection of the dead,

 

but has no understanding of the resurrection the Lord

 

will bestow upon those believing on His name,

 

and no understanding of the Rapture.

 

 

Beloved, I Have Little Knowledge Of What Sister Martha May Or May Not Have Understood

 

Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. John 11:5

 

Except That She Sat Directly Under Jesus As Her Teacher

 

Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house. John 11:20

 

So, If Her Creator Did Not Correct Her

 

But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said,

 

Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.

 

And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:

 

But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. Luke 10:40-42

 

Neither Would

 

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. John 11:25

 

I

 

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,

 

but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,

 

and shall reign with him

 

a thousand years. Revelation 20:5-6

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved

 

Every word of God is pure:

 

he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

 

Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

Would you also view Martha as understanding the Gospel of Christ as well? Or any "believer" that sat under the teachings of Christ?

What you are saying here is that I am adding to the words of Christ, when in fact we know that the revelation of the Gospel Mystery as well as the mystery of the Rapture was in fact added after the Lord's earthly ministry ended.

Without this distinction we nullify the fact that much of the New Testament deals with new revelation which was not provided in the Old Testament, and Christ's ministry, which precedes the beginning of the Church, as well as the very mysteries said to be revealed through Paul by the power of the Holy Spirit, can be placed under the economy of the Law. Christ was made under the Law, ministered under the Law, and it is not until His death that we can say He established the New Covenant which was established by the very blood of Christ.

The New Covenant, while spoken of in the Old Testament, remained promised until that promise was fulfilled. It is fulfilled in Christ, and we mark the difference between the Age of Law and the Age of Grace which are two entirely different covenants. Paul wrote that he (and his companion evangelists/ministers) had been made able ministers of the New Covenant, and again, we see the distinction between the two. If we do not make the distinction as Scripture does, then we merge and blend teachings and concepts which is the very reason so many get confused about issues such as whether we are under the Law still...or not.

God bless.

[Guest]

Hope

 

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

 

By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

 

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrew 11:8-10

 

And Foreknowledge

 

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

 

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:20-21

 

And Ancient Comprehension

 

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

 

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

 

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:25-27

[S.T. Ranger]

Hope

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrew 11:8-10

And Foreknowledge

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:20-21

And Ancient Comprehension

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:25-27

...which does not equate to understanding that which was previously unrevealed, not negate the very declaration of God's Word which teaches contrary to the belief that men had foreknowledge and "ancient comprehension."

1 Corinthians 2:5-8

King James Version (KJV)

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Romans 16:25

King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Ephesians 3:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[wingnut-]

Merry Christmas, my friend, hope yours was a joyful one, and thanks for the response.

 

 

Hello again ranger,

 

Thank you, and yes my Christmas was joyful, hope yours was as well.  You are more than welcome for the response, I am always willing to discuss scripture.  I will start with your first question and work my way down, but I would like to attempt to stay with the original topic.  Specifically the resurrection topic.  I think this is the epi-center, and so we have to work our way out from there.  However, this chronology issue has to be addressed, so I am going to present some scripture and ask you some direct questions that I must know your answer to in order to understand what you are saying.

 

The first question to ask is how can this be the first resurrection (in sequence) when the Two Witnesses are not only resurrected in ch.11 but raptured?

 

 

I am slightly puzzled by the question, because I thought we agreed that the rapture is a resurrection, yet now you are trying to separate the two.  But to answer the question, how can this be the first resurrection when the two witnesses were resurrected in chapter 11?  Revelation is not chronological.

 

Revelation 11:¹⁵ The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become

    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

¹⁶ And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, ¹⁷ saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,

    the One who is and who was,

because you have taken your great power

    and have begun to reign.

¹⁸ The nations were angry,

    and your wrath has come.

The time has come for judging the dead,

    and for rewarding your servants the prophets

and your people who revere your name,

    both great and small—

and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

 

Revelation 22:¹¹ Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. ¹² And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. ¹³ The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. ¹⁴ Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. ¹⁵ Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

The judging of the dead only occurs once, the first passage is from Chapter 11 (Your midway point), do you see the problem here?

 

Many have tried to make the Seal, Trumpet, and Vial Judgments the same judgments based on similarities, however, when we compare these judgments we are forced to abandon that view when we acknowledge the dissimilarities between them which demand that they are different judgments.

 

 

Which ones demand that they are different judgements?

 

To tell someone that Revelation is not chronological is the absolute worst advice someone can give someone else in regards to understanding Revelation.

 

 

Hopefully the above example will have changed your thought process on this issue.  The scripture tells us that Revelation is not chronological.  When I got my degree in eschatology, I knew of no one that held your viewpoint on that, and they all believed what you are presenting, including me.  Now it's been awhile, but I'm not that old   If ncn sees that he won't be able to resist   Anyway, I am just wondering if that is the majority viewpoint now?   I seriously see no argument here scripturally.

 

Anyway, let's get back to the resurrection.

 

Revelation 20:⁴ I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. ⁵ (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. ⁶ Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

Fact 1.  There are three different groups of people:  those who had been given authority to judge, those who had been beheaded, the rest of the dead.

 

Who do you think these three groups represent?

 

Fact 2.   All three groups are dead.

Fact 3.  Two of the groups: those who had been given authority to judge, those who had been beheaded come to life and reign with Him for the thousand years.

Fact 4.  The same two groups are part of the first resurrection.

Fact 5.  The same two groups are blessed and holy.

Fact 6.  The same two groups are not affected by the second death.

Fact 7.  The same two groups will be priests of God and Christ.

Fact 8.  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.  This is the second resurrection.  The millenium separates the two as stated in the passage.

 

You seem confused on this, because in your responses it looks like you only see those who had been beheaded, and you stated that the first resurrection occurs after the millenium.  Neither of those are true.  Revelation is a complete accounting of the end times, John is not addressing the past, he is speaking to the future.  That is what a Revelation is, a revealing.  The resurrection of Christ was a given, he was clear on that in his gospel, and he touches on that again at the beginning of the book.  When he writes first resurrection, it is because it is the first resurrection within this book of prophecy.  And this prophetic book is dealing with a very specific time, the end time.

 

In doing so, John is telling you that this book is not chronological, because of the resurrection of the two witnesses 9 chapters prior to this.  He is telling you that the two witnesses are part of the first resurrection.  The same thing Paul tells us, "the dead in Christ shall rise first".

 

You are seriously trying to argue that first doesn't mean first?  Does Alpha not mean Alpha?

 

The word "first" can be seen not to represent sequential order, and we see this in the following verses:

 

 

I'm afraid that the scriptures you posted do not at all suggest what you claim to me, I will address your first offering and explain to you what this means to me.

 

Matthew 20:²⁰ Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.

²¹ “What is it you want?” he asked.

She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.”

²² “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?”

“We can,” they answered.

²³ Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

²⁴ When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. ²⁵ Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. ²⁶ Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, ²⁷ and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— ²⁸ just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

 

The goal of this passage is to be "first", to please God.  To do this you must have a servant's heart; contrite, humble, and happy to be so.  In short, to be Christlike.  This speaks to the very heart of the overall message in scripture from beginning to end, and does the opposite of what you are suggesting.

 

That this cannot possibly be the first resurrection in regards to sequence according to the resurrection which the Body of Christ will receive should be fairly obvious to us...because the First Resurrection unto glorification is none other than the Resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

 

The problem you have here is fairly simple, you are forgetting to apply what you already know, and trying to dismiss the word "first" as if God wrote it by mistake.

 

The two witnesses are dead, correct?

Paul tells us that the dead in Christ rise first, and then those who are alive join them, correct?

Therefore when the two dead witnesses rise, those alive will follow them, correct?

In your scenario you have those alive going ahead of the dead, do you see the problem?

Certainly the two witnesses qualify as the dead in Christ, correct?

This all comes from disregarding the word "first" in Revelation 20.

 

The passage in Revelation 11 establishes that the two witnesses receive the "breath of life", displaying that they receive their glorified body here, and you are trying to separate them from the first resurrection.  This only happens once in scripture prior to the millenium when addressing the end times.  They are the same event, this is one of the many things that illustrate how Revelation is not chronological.

 

When all that needs to be done is accurately identify the meaning of the word "first" and keep the order of events...

 

 

Exactly, and what is the definition of the word first?  According to Thorndike Barnhart dictionary it is this.

 

first , adj.  1a coming before all others; before anything else:  Sunday is the first day of the week.  First is used as the ordinal of one, in which it may be written, 1st.  SYN:  earliest, original, initial, chief, foremost, principal, leading.  1b  foremost in position, rank, or importance:  He is first in his class.  2a  playing or singing the part highest in musical pitch:  first violin, first soprano.  2b  highest in musical pitch  3 designating the lowest gear ratio of a standard automobile transmission; low.

 

first , adv.  1  before all others; before anything else:  We eat first and then feed the cat.  The good die first (Wordsworth)  2  before some other thing or event:  First bring me the chalk.  3  for the first time:  When first I met her, she was a child.  4  rather; sooner:  The soldiers said they would never give up their flag, but would die first.  I'll go to jail first.

 

first, n.  1  a person, thing, or place that comes before all others; first number or member of a series:  We were first to get here.  2  the winning position in a race or contest.  3  the first day of the month:  I'll see you on the first.  4 baseball.  first base.  5  the beginning:  the first of a storm.  6  the first gear; low gear.  7  the voice or instrument of its class taking the highest part.  8  British.  a) a place in the first class in an examination:  a first in Physics.  b)  a person who has taken a place in the first class.

 

Before all others; before anything else.  Re-defining words does not work for me, I am an English major after all.

 

Secondly, and lastly, to address further that the First Resurrection speaks of type, how do we do that?

 

 

That should be easy enough, just post the passage of scripture that establishes the "types" of resurrections in the end times and let's have a look.  I only see two types of resurrection in regards to the end times one of the living, and one of the dead.  Ironically, they are the only two that John or Daniel see as well.  So that would be the criteria necessary, scripture that speaks to this other type of resurrection, what do we call it?

 

 

 

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 

Three verses in and we already know that understanding is possible, which is true of every revelation God has provided men. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is not given shrouded in mystery, as the Gospel of Christ and the teaching of the Rapture was in the Old Testament, but understanding is both possible and expected, and I can testify that understanding is a blessing which comforts the soul in regards to end-time events, even as our beloved brother Paul wrote of to the Thessalonians.

 

 

I completely agree that understanding is not only possible, but expected.  Which is why your assertion that first does not mean first is untenable.  If first does not mean first, then it is not understandable at all, that would be confusion.  Your acknowledgement of this is contradictory to your conclusions and how you have to arrive at them.

 

You say:  God wrote a book anyone can understand, but the word first doesn't mean first, see the problem?

 

But consider what is written before the Tribulation events begin:

Revelation 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Heaven is opened and John is caught up.

 

 

What it appears you are trying to suggest here is that John being in the spirit somehow equates to this missing event in your scenario.  Consider that this is in chapter 4, and look at what John says in chapter 1.

 

Revelation 1:⁹ I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. ¹⁰ On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, ¹¹ which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”

 

First off, John was in the spirit here, correct?

Is this the rapture as well?

 

Three chapters apart, visions are random my friend, which means they should not be viewed chronologically.  There are so many examples that it is not in sequence throughout, I just keep offering them to you.  In addition, there is nothing in scripture to support joining the phrase "in the spirit" with the rapture or any resurrection.  Are we not "in the spirit" when we read scripture?  When we pray?  During worship?

 

On top of that, John would have died more than once in your scenario, because he wrote Revelation after the vision and died some time later.  He could not have been there and gone through the entire thing without having died himself at the first resurrection.  He still has to write it down, see the problem here?

 

I want to offer you an illustration from my personal perspective for your consideration and response.

 

Revelation 20:⁴ I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

My father passed away some time ago now, he was a christian, he believed the same thing you do.  Right now he is with Jesus, and when we arrive at the first resurrection, he is one of those who had been given authority to judge.

 

Currently, our brothers and sisters in Christ are being murdered all over the world, particularly in Africa.  Many of them have been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.  Right now they are with Jesus, and when we arrive at the first resurrection, they are in that second group.  We also know for certain that this second group includes people from within the great tribulation.  This is the first resurrection, see the problem?

 

The passage clearly states, "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."  They came to life, think about that.  There are only two types of resurrection in relation to the end times, one for the living, and one for the dead.  One takes place before the millenium, the other takes place after.  Do you not see in scripture that the group in this first resurrection are the ones to reign with Him?  Does scripture not tell you that you are in that group?

 

Your argument doesn't even agree with itself.  This is why I no longer believe what you currently do.  I am not attacking anyone with this viewpoint, I am displaying why it falls apart under scrutiny, as it did for me.  Everything I have to say I have already said to myself, so I want to be clear that all of this comes from the heart, with all the love of Jesus that is in me.

 

Not entirely accurate: everyone from each of these Churches who overcomes will be caught up.

 

 

The above statement was in response to what I posted regarding the letters to the churches.  We don't disagree that they will be caught up, the question is when.  There is nothing in any of these letters to indicate that these churches are removed prior to the first resurrection.  In fact, the only one to imply that any of them are going anywhere points right to the first resurrection.  And then there is this letter.

 

Revelation 2:⁸ “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. ⁹ I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. ¹⁰ Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

¹¹ Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

 

Focus on the underlined passages please.  Do not be afraid of what your are about to suffer.  The devil is going to put some of them in prison.  Not wicked men, not corrupt chiefs, the devil.  When does this take place?

 

Revelation 13:³ One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. ⁴ People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?” ⁵ The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. ⁶ It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. ⁷ It was given power to wage war against the saints and to conquer them.

 

Revelation 13:⁹ Whoever has ears, let them hear.

¹⁰ “If anyone is to go into captivity,

    into captivity they will go.

If anyone is to be killed with the sword,

    with the sword they will be killed.”

This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

 

John connects these two things together, in each letter to the churches he uses the phrase "Whoever has ears, let them hear", and you will notice right here in these passages the word "saints", which is the equivalent of believers, which is what we call those within the church today, saints.  You say the church is gone, and yet here they are.

 

And what does John write at the end of the letter to Smyrna, The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.  And who in Revelation 20 is not hurt by the second death?  Those who take part in the first resurrection.  That includes this church, they are part of the first resurrection, which happens just prior to the millenium.

 

There is nothing in the letter to Smyrna to indicate the Lord has one single grievance with this church, and what is said to them places them right in the midst of the mark of the beast, do you see the problem here?

 

Jesus tells us over and over again to be prepared.  What you suggest is that I need to be prepared for an evacuation that will come unexpectedly.  If I am being evacuated unexpectedly, what do I need to be prepared for?  I have nothing to worry about at that point.

 

When Jesus tells me to be prepared, this is what I think of.

 

Ephesians 6:¹⁰ Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. ¹¹ Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. ¹² For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. ¹³ Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. ¹⁴ Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, ¹⁵ and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. ¹⁶ In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. ¹⁷ Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

¹⁸ And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. ¹⁹ Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, ²⁰ for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

 

Paul tells us how to prepare ourselves for the day of evil, what does that mean to you?

Paul tells us to stand our ground in that day, what does that say to you?

Paul emphasizes to stand firm then, in that day of evil, what does that say to you?

 

I fear you are preparing yourself for an evacuation, when scripture makes it apparent you should be preparing for war.  Furthermore, this is the message being given to the future generation, so this is why I challenge what you are saying with scripture.  This letter is also written to the church, see the problem here?

 

This reference to resurrection reaches into the eternal state, and is not a timeline for the Tribulation. Within that framework we have no less than one thousand and seven years. Where the Church is raptured cannot be designated by this passage.

 

 

Your above response is regarding this passage from I Corinthians.

 

I Corinthians 15:²² For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. ²³ But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. ²⁴ Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. ²⁵ For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. ²⁶ The last enemy to be destroyed is death. ²⁷ For he “has put everything under his feet.”

 

Surely you can't be serious.  Paul places this precisely where John does in Revelation, just prior to the millenium (verse 25).  He finishes the job, and puts everything under his feet.  The exact same sequence John gives, but in verse 23 Paul specifies the order of resurrection to a glorified body.  Christ, the firstfruits, then when he comes, those who belong to Him.  Then the end will come.  It says exactly what it says.  To suggest that the passage does not speak to the timeline in the end leaves me with this expression. 

 

Continued......

[Marilyn C]

Hi wingnut,
 
just reading your post to S.T.Ranger you may like to think on a couple of thoughts I have.
 
Yes people are beheaded in Africa & elsewhere today & throughout (church) history & obviously if they believed in the Lord they would be overcomers in Christ. However the people in Rev. 20: 4 are those who not only were beheaded for their witness to Jesus & for the word of God BUT they `had not worshipped the beast or his image & had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. (Rev. 20: 4) Very specific there wingnut.
 
Also you referred to Corinthians 15:22

 

`For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”

 

You said -
 

 

` Paul places this precisely where John does in Revelation, just prior to the millenium (verse 25). He finishes the job, and puts everything under his feet. The exact same sequence John gives, but in verse 23 Paul specifies the order of resurrection to a glorified body. Christ, the firstfruits, then when he comes, those who belong to Him. Then the end will come. It says exactly what it says. To suggest that the passage does not speak to the timeline in the end leaves me with this expression.

 

Had you realised that when Christ rules through Israel in the Millennium there are still enemies, authorities etc to be dealt with -

 

1. Rebellious people in the Millennium. (Zech. 14: 17)

2. The armies of the world that gather against Jerusalem at the end of the Millennium. (Rev. 20: 7 - 9)

3. The Devil. (Rev. 20: 10)

4. Death. (1 Cor. 15: 26)

 

Hope that helps. Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2014 by Marilyn C

[wingnut-]

The one problem the Post-Tribulation believer is going to have is actually finding a text which teaches a resurrection in this time. No such resurrection exists. You view "those taken" as being raptured, when this is incorrect. When we consult the parallel passage in Luke we see that those taken (and see the Greek on "taken" and "left" for an interesting bit of trivia, lol)...

...die:

Luke 17:32-37

King James Version (KJV)

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

A few things to consider:

1. those saved in the examples given did not "leave" but were left behind; those that fell to the judgment...died;

2. we cannot debate whether this refers to Christ's Return;

3. in v.33 we see that in view is either preservation or loss of life, even as it was in the examples used by the Lord;

4. the disciples' question "Where, Lord?" can only refer to "Where are they taken, and His answer refers to where the eagles are gathered, which speaks of carcasses and carrion fowl.

 

 

Continued from post #317....

 

Well, you are the first person I have ever heard try to say that the imagery established here is not referring to the rapture.  Let me clarify this for you, so you will understand this is no problem for me to reconcile with everything.

 

You answered it yourself, where are they taken?  What imagery is this we are given?

 

Revelation 19:¹⁷ And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, ¹⁸ so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

¹⁹ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. ²⁰ But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. ²¹ The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

 

The reason you will find those taken here, is because they were resurrected just prior to this, and from that point on they will be following Jesus wherever He goes.  They represent part of that army following Him.  This is where He goes, so this is where you will find those taken, understand?

 

Oh and by the way, what precedes the above passage.

 

Revelation 19:¹⁵ Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

 

Again, this is the phrase referencing His reign, the millenium, applied to this specific battle, also linked to the Fall of Babylon with the reference to the winepress, and when do all these things happen?  On the last day.  The millenium is a day, not a thousand years.  Everything you associate with the millenium is referring to eternity.  His reign is one of vengeance, there is a huge difference between the two.

 

Again, what does Peter say?

 

II Peter 3:⁸ But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

 

Peter is discussing the day of the Lord in this entire chapter, so any attempt to say this does not apply to the end times is futile.  And what is that one thing we are not to forget?  A day= a thousand years.  The millenium is a day, the day of the Lord.  It is a day of extreme violence and wrath.

 

II Peter 3:¹⁰ But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

 

Peter goes on to attach the symbol of the thief directly to the day of the Lord.  Why?  Simple, because this is when He comes, on the beginning of this day, when that 7th trumpet sounds.

 

So to answer your question, who populates the millenial kingdom?

 

Revelation 6:¹⁵ Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. ¹⁶ They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

These people above, which are also these people below.

 

Revelation 9:²⁰ The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. ²¹ Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

 

Which are also these same people.

 

Revelation 16:¹⁶ Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

And let us not forget these people.

 

Revelation 11:¹³ At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

Mostly what is left at this point are opposed to God.  The majority of believers will have been executed by this point, whatever remains will either be locked up in prison awaiting execution, or the group of survivors in Jerusalem who give glory to God following the first resurrection.  Keep in mind that Jerusalem has been handed over to the Gentiles for this 42 month period, so these survivors are most likely Gentiles.

 

First, while I can appreciate an association of the Sixth Day with the Six Judgment/s, I would remind you that it is still the sixth, not the seventh, which I also see in the Millennial Kingdom, meaning, the Kingdom can be viewed as the "rest" which this current universe will receive prior to passing away and yielding to the new heavens and earth.

 

 

He will rule them with an iron scepter, and somehow you equate this with rest?  There is no rest, there is judgement, wrath.  Rest comes when everything has been placed under his feet.

 

Secondly, Christ does not Return during any of the Sixth Judgments.

 

 

Really, who is speaking here?

 

Revelation 16:¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

 

Who is coming?  Jesus.  Who gave us the sign of the thief?  Jesus.  If this were a snake, it would bite you.

 

Third, while both Paul's teaching and the Seventh Trumpet mention a trumpet, we have to acknowledge that it is just a fact that Christ does not return at the Seventh Trumpet's sounding

 

 

There are 7 trumpets in Revelation, following the 7th trumpet, there are no more trumpets mentioned.  That would make the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet, which is precisely what Paul wrote.  The fact is, this is precisely when the resurrection occurs, before the 6th judgements have finished this last trumpet will sound.  This is what scripture says.

 

Again, the "sign" is the actual return of Christ. For those in rebellion against God, who are under the power of Antichrist and strong delusion of God, when the destruction that takes place at His return occurs, they will never know what hit them. At least, they will not see it coming. The soldier in the trenches will be under the impression that he is on the side of right, which the Return of Christ will dispel that immediately.

 

 

Incorrect.  The event is His second coming, the sign attached to it by Jesus is the thief, and also the fig tree, as well as the signs in the heavenly bodies.  Each one of these appears during the 6th judgements, not prior to the tribulation, but during it, and very near the end.  So when you read Revelation 16:15 understand that this is what He is saying.

 

"Look, I am coming.  Two men will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left."

 

That is precisely what He is telling you here.  This is a great big neon sign flashing at you. 

 

Two primary reasons not to view this as a picture of the Rapture: first, it occurs while the Tribulation is still in process

 

 

The above statement was made in response to Revelation 14.  First, it must occur when the tribulation is still in progress, because that is when He comes by all accounts of scripture.  It is also when John writes that the first resurrection takes place.  Anyway, let's look at these two resurrections in chapter 14, the same two resurrections you see in chapter 20.

 

Revelation 14:¹⁴ I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. ¹⁵ Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” ¹⁶ So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

 

This is the first resurrection.

 

Revelation 14:¹⁷ Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. ¹⁸ Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” ¹⁹ The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. ²⁰ They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

 

This is the second resurrection.  These are the only two resurrections that occur in this time period.  Notice that Jesus does the first resurrection, and the angel does the second resurrection.  Also pay attention to what is said in the second resurrection, again, this reference to the winepress points to the Fall of Babylon.  What is the final thing to be destroyed?  Death.  If death is gone, then there are no more dead.

 

So we have Christ receiving commands from...an Angel?

 

 

The command comes from God the Father, because He is the only one who knows the day or hour.  Jesus is waiting for the Father to give the word, we all know that.  The angel is merely delivering a message, one of the tasks we quite often see an angel doing.  What does the angel say, "for the time to reap has come."  What time do you think he is referring to?

 

Revelation 22:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This can be said because those that have overcome are not in need of the invitation, because they have entered into salvation already. This is, I believe, a strong indication that the Church will not go through the Tribulation.

 

 

Incorrect.  While we agree that overcomers are not in need of an invitation, this can be said because this book is a prophetic one, and is speaking to what is to come.  This entire prophecy was for all the churches from the day it was written until we arrive at the end.  You are trying to take what this says and apply it as if "it is done", big difference in perspectives there.

 

Something else to add for consideration.

 

The Israelites did not come up out of Egypt until after the ten plagues.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego went in to the fiery furnace.

Daniel went in to the Lion's den.

Noah went through the flood.

Jesus suffered the cross.

The apostles went through their tribulation.

People right now are being killed for their faith in Jesus.

 

It goes on and on and on....

 

Anyway, I think that covers everything.  I look forward to your reply, God bless you.

[wingnut-]

Hi wingnut,

 

just reading your post to S.T.Ranger you may like to think on a couple of thoughts I have.

 

 

Hello Marilyn,

 

I'll just start from the top and work my way down.

 

Yes people are beheaded in Africa & elsewhere today & throughout (church) history & obviously if they believed in the Lord they would be overcomers in Christ. However the people in Rev. 20: 4 are those who not only were beheaded for their witness to Jesus & for the word of God BUT they `had not worshipped the beast or his image & had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. (Rev. 20: 4) Very specific there wingnut.

 

 

Agreed, it is very specific.  So what are the requirements?

 

1.  They are beheaded for their belief in Jesus and for the Word of God.

2.  They do not worship the beast or his image.

3.  They do not receive the mark of the beast.

 

Are you implying that those who have or are being beheaded now accepted the mark or worshipped the beast?  If not, then they meet all the criteria necessary to be in that group.  The point is in all of this, both groups are resurrected together.  One group represents believers from within the church, and one group represents believers from within the great tribulation.  They are together, resurrected together.

 

Had you realised that when Christ rules through Israel in the Millennium there are still enemies, authorities etc to be dealt with -

 

1. Rebellious people in the Millennium. (Zech. 14: 17)

2. The armies of the world that gather against Jerusalem at the end of the Millennium. (Rev. 20: 7 - 9)

3. The Devil. (Rev. 20: 10)

4. Death. (1 Cor. 15: 26)

 

 

Absolutely, this is why His reign in this day is done with an iron scepter.  He is going to knock the stuffing out of them so to speak.  The key is to remember that one thing Peter pleads with us not to forget.  A day= a thousand years.  God bless you.

[wingnut-]

Hello again Ranger and anyone else following along,

 

There is something more I wanted to add for your consideration, so forgive me for continuing on, but I think this may help everyone to understand what I am trying to say.  What I want to discuss is something we touched on in our conversation, and that is how people were in the days of Noah, and how they will be in the end times.

 

Matthew 24:³⁷ As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. ³⁸ For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; ³⁹ and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

 

In this passage, Jesus tells us what we both agree on, people will pay no attention to the signs, correct?

Peter says the following.

 

II Peter 3:³ Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. ⁴ They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” ⁵ But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. ⁶ By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. ⁷ By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

 

Again, we see specifically that in the last days scoffers will come.  We see specifically that they question His coming, which in turn means, they are ignoring the signs, correct?

 

The disciples ask Jesus specifically for what?

 

Matthew 24:³ As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

 

And His response is this.

 

Matthew 24:²⁹ “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

³⁰ “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. ³¹ And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

³² “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. ³³ Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

 

Matthew 24:⁴⁰ Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. ⁴¹ Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

⁴² “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. ⁴³ But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. ⁴⁴ So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

 

Everything in red above is a sign, from Jesus.  What you suggest is that I ignore all of these signs He gave me.  Do you see the problem here?

 

In essence, you are telling me and anyone else to become the scoffers, ignore the signs.  Ignore Jesus?  Is it any wonder that there will be scoffers when the church itself is endorsing ignoring the signs?  And according to you, this same church deserves some kind of special treatment from God?

 

I think in an effort to cling to this early exit theory, people are not following out what they suggest to its full conclusion.  I don't believe for one second that your intention aligns with any of what I said in the above segment, but that is what you are telling people to do.  You are telling everyone to ignore the signs Jesus gave, and become one of those scoffers.

 

Do not ignore the signs, be prepared.  God gave us His Word for a reason, every word within it is for each of us.

 

The other thing I wanted to discuss are the thoughts I left you with from the last post, so I will copy and paste that here.

 

The Israelites did not come up out of Egypt until after the ten plagues.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego went in to the fiery furnace.

Daniel went in to the Lion's den.

Noah went through the flood.

Jesus suffered the cross.

The apostles went through their tribulation.

People right now are being killed for their faith in Jesus.

 

There is a pattern here that needs to be addressed, starting with the events from the Old Testament.  In each of the stories mentioned above from the Old Testament, we see these consistencies.

 

They all go through their situation, they are not removed from it.  God protects and delivers them from their situation.  In Revelation 12, we see this same pattern again concerning the character of the woman.  The woman will go through the tribulation, but God will protect and deliver her.

 

Now, let us look at what happens from the time of the New Testament.

 

Jesus was crucified.

The apostles were killed.

Ever since that time believers have been killed.

 

There is a pattern here as well, it is called sacrifice.  In Revelation 12, we see this same pattern again concerning the character of the offspring.  The offspring will be killed by the enemy, just as the enemy has been killing believers since the cross.

 

The woman represents the remnant of Israel spoken of by the prophets, God will deal with the Jews in the same manner He always has.  The 7 years are the remaining years on their promise from God to receive the Messiah.  They will squander the first 3 1/2 years just as they squandered the previous 493 years.  We see this illustrated in scripture regarding these times.

 

First, they will make a covenant with the anti-christ himself.  Second, they will rebuild their temple and resume the same rituals they practiced in the Old Testament.  They are still not believers or they would not do this.  When the anti-christ rises from the fatal head wound, he will then desecrate the temple.  The Jews will suddenly realize they missed something, because they will know that this is what Daniel prophesied.  This is when they will flee Jerusalem, and the city is given over to the gentiles for 42 months.  This is when God initiates His protection of them, with both the seal, and not allowing the dragon to get them.

 

God does not do this out of favoritism, God does this in keeping His promise.  The Jews could not understand this because God made them blind to it.  He did this so that salvation could come to the gentiles.  God will not let them perish over a blindness He put there to save us gentiles, so He must take them aside and lead them to truth.  This is precisely what John writes in Revelation, and it is confirmed through the prophets Hosea and Isaiah.

 

The offspring represent the church.  God will deal with the church in the same manner He always has, no believer is subject to the second death.  This life we now live is meaningless apart from Jesus, it is through Him that our sins are removed, thereby making us immune to the second death.  The life we now live belongs to Him, and if some among us are alive in the end times, we should willingly lay down this life just as He did.

 

John 12:²⁵ Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. ²⁶ Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

 

And what does it mean to follow Him.

 

Matthew 10:³⁸ Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. ³⁹ Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

 

Matthew 16:²⁴ Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. ²⁵ For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it."

 

Mark 8:³⁴ Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. ³⁵ For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it."

 

Luke 9:²³ Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. ²⁴ For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it."

 

Luke 14:²⁵ Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: ²⁶ “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. ²⁷ And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple."

 

Luke 14:³⁴ “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? ³⁵ It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out.

“Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

 

This is not a subtle point He is making, it appears in all four gospels, multiple times in some.  This has been true from that time until now, believers die in this life, yet they never taste death.  This will continue until the end.  The final passage from the end of Luke 14, indicates that Jesus is pointing us directly to Revelation.

 

Consider this analogy.  When you assemble a jigsaw puzzle, how do you begin?  If the picture you are trying to assemble has a horse as the centerpiece, you start by finding all the pieces that could be a part of the horse and start putting them together.  The pieces either fit, or they belong elsewhere, you can't force them together and end up with the correct puzzle at the end.  You must also use every piece to say you have completed it.  Scripture is no different.

 

God bless.