Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Salty]

 

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

I'll start from the top and work my way down.

 

Salty:  I pretty much agree with that judgment of Satan's angels, but not really on the timing. Right now for me it's a toss-up between the Day of The Lord with Christ's coming or the later Great White Throne Judgment after the "thousand years. Remember that per Rev.12:7 forward, Satan and his angels are to be cast down to this earth with those on earth given a huge 'woe', because the devil knows he has a short time, and then tribulation events given along with it. So I believe his angels with him are going to be here on earth for the tribulation, which might actually be the 7,000 that perish on the 7th trumpet of Rev.11 when Jesus comes.

 

 

The timing is definitely the issue, and I agree with you that Satan and his angels are cast down in Revelation 12.  The question is, are they bound at that time.  It doesn't appear that they are involved much with what is happening, even when the enemy begins to gather the nations for war, it is done by spirits coming from the unholy trinity.  I also would offer this for your consideration regarding the angels perishing in battle.  They are spiritual beings, eternal beings, so there is no natural death for them, which would explain why they are bound.  Basically though, they can only suffer the second death, spiritual death.

 

Salty:  after considering it more, it's not likely that the angels in chains in the pit could be those cast down with Satan. I see those angels in chains kept in store as those who came down during Noah's days per Gen.6. I believe the 7,000 of Rev.11 may be a different group. Why do I think this?

 

It's because none born in the flesh are cast into the lake of fire (second death) until God's Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium, per Rev.20. I do not believe Christ's Millennium reign will involve anyone in a flesh body, all in a resurrection type body per one of the two types our Lord Jesus declared in John 5:28-29, those still alive changed to one of the two types. But in Rev.11 with the 7th trumpet, we are shown 7,000 in Jerusalem destroyed, and I believe that is pointing to a group of Satan's angels cast down with him per Rev.12:7>. Furthermore, I do not believe in the traditional idea of spirit not being able to manifest on earth with an image of man, since God's Word shows it happened all throughout His Word (like Gen.18 & 19; Heb.13). Satan and his angels when cast down will appear de facto, in person, on earth, and we all will see him and them with the image of man they were created with. That does not require they be born in a flesh body, as the Gen.18 & 19 examples again shows. It is this event for the very end that I believe is what makes the "great tribulation" such a time of great temptation by the supernatural manifested on earth in our dimension.

 

 

Salty:  I believe the 1290 and 1335 days are about the cleansing, and your Matt.25 reference that will begin when Jesus takes His reign upon David's throne on earth, His sheep He separates on His right hand being His Church that includes the foundation of Eph.2 and only those who have remained faithful to Him up to that time. Those of His Church that fell away will be joined with the 'goats' on His left hand, and walk spiritually naked in shame (Rev.16:15).

 

 

Obviously we see this differently because of our view on the millenium, but I understand what you are presenting.  You may well be right, but with the scripture we have to this point in regards to the millenium, I am still of the impression that the length of time is more likely a day.

 

Something you wrote there I cannot agree with, and it is that 200 million troops idea of Rev.9. That's actually referring to the locust prophecy from the Book of Joel, the locust army that God called His army that He sends, like for a punishment upon the earth. That timing of the 6th trumpet is actually tribulation timing, not Armageddon. I do not see that as a literal military army because of the Joel prophecy. Instead, I see them as being about Satan's host on earth working to set him up in power as king in Jerusalem during the tribulation timing, which flows all the way to Rev.11:14.

 

 

I'm not clear on what you are saying here exactly.  Do you think the 200 million troops are the enemy?  I agree with you that this is not Armageddon, that battle comes at the end of the millenium.  However, I do see this as the battle where the beast and the false prophet are disposed of, and Satan is bound up.

 

Do I see that 200 million of Rev.9 as the enemy? Definitely. Sorry but I have say, you have that timing wrong. The 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is the actual "great tribulation" timing. The Book of Joel parallels those events about that locust army. In Joel 2:25 when God called them His army He sent among us, it is by no means in the positive sense, nor an army that will destroy Satan and his host. It is... Satan's host. That can be discovered by studying the Book of Joel in parallel with Rev.9 about those locusts.

 

Look at the last 3 trumpets again. They each have a Woe connected with them, and begin at the end of Rev.8 and flow all the way to Rev.11:14 which is when Jesus comes with the Day of The Lord events. Those are 'woe' periods upon the earth. Also especially notice Rev.9:17-19 of exactly where... their 'power' is. It's from their 'mouths'. What comes out of one's mouth? Words. And in this case with that locust army, it is words that cause deception, and death to one's soul, because that timing is when Antichrist will be established as king in Jerusalem over all nations and peoples on the earth, with the majority believing he is God (2 Thess.2:4). Thus the type of killing Rev.9 is referring to is spiritual, death to one's soul for bowing in false worship to the Antichrist in place of Christ. So in that respect, what kind... of locust army really is that, one of literal military soldiers, or an army of Satan's host disguised as the "ministers of righteousness"? Believe it or not, this is exactly what Apostle Paul was hinting at in 2 Corinthians 11 about Satan disguised as an angel of light, and his ministers as ministers of righteousness. They're coming.

 

About Armageddon. That is a 7th trumpet/7th vial event; those of Ezek.38 coming upon Israel on the last day of this world. It is the final battle of this present world when our Lord Jesus returns on the Day of The Lord. The Gog/Magog event of Rev.20 is a "thousand years" after that. With the Gog/Magog mention at the end of Rev.20, there is no specific nation alignment given, as all those nations outside the "camp of the saints" are involved in that future time. But the Armageddon event with the Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38 involves a specific nation alignment, and today that nation alignment is almost complete except for Turkey (old area of Togarmah).

 

 

[wingnut-]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

I'll work my way down from the top.

 

Salty:  but recall Rev.20:9-10 when Satan is actually cast into the lake of fire, and those who follow him up against the "camp of saints" are then destroyed too. That event is prior to the "second death" into the "lake of fire" event after God's Great White Throne Judgment.

 

 

I agree with what you say above.  Satan is cast immediately into the lake of fire, just as the beast and false prophet were before him.  None of these three face judgement, their fate has already been decided.  The people with Satan at the final battle will die a natural death just as scripture tells us they will.  They still have to be judged with everyone else who died outside His grace, and they will be resurrected at the same time, this is the resurrection of the rest of the dead John speaks of in Revelation 20.  This happens at the end of the millenium.

 

Furthermore, on the Day of The Lord (when our Lord Jesus comes), God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off this earth (2 Pet.3:10), along with some of the wicked (per the "plague" in Zech.14). Thus I believe in a probability of the 7,000 of Rev.11 being about Satan's angels on earth. But I'm not solid on that idea though. I just don't see our Heavenly Father having to wait. Either way, we know they will be destroyed.

 

 

I agree with you somewhat on the first part, but I would say that God is going to consume all of the wicked at this point.  As for the angels, they already have eternal bodies, they are going to be bound and then face judgement because they already have the spiritual body.   Damnation is eternal punishment, the natural body would not hold up in the lake of fire, this is why there is a resurrection of the rest of the dead, they will get an eternal body as well.

 

Salty:  you mean the "thousand years" of Rev.20 to you is more like one literal day, instead of a literal thousand year period? If that's what you mean, I cannot agree with that.

 

 

Yes, I understand this is one thing we do not agree on, and yes, I am saying that I believe the millenium is more likely a day than a thousand years.  The reasoning is rather simple.  If you have 100 eye witnesses to a murder, and 99 of them say it was the man in the black leather jacket who did it.  And 1 who says it was the woman in the red hoody that did it, I am going to go with the 99 every time.  I would look into what the 1 said, but if no evidence is found to corroborate the story, then I would have to dismiss it.  This is the case with the thousand years, it comes from 1 book, the rest say that it is a day, so at this point I am inclined to believe that.

 

Salty:  6th trumpet is "great tribulation" timing. That loosing involving Euphrates in Rev.9 is the trib start. The prophecy in Rev.16 that uses Euphrates is a different timing altogether. The specific day, hour, month, year, etc., is about the tribulation period when Antichrist takes literal reign over all the earth from Jerusalem.  This is the high point in the endtime prophecies. The last three trumpet - woe periods are about the prep time (sealing), then tribulation, then our Lord Jesus' coming and our gathering to Him, in that order. That 6th trumpet's events flow all the way up to Rev.11:14 when the 7th trumpet sounds. That's also the 42 months of the dragon's reign, given in parallel to the time when the Gentiles tread the holy city per Rev.11:1-2, and God's two witnesses appear in Jerusalem to prophecy against Satan and his host for 1260 days (equal to that 42 months period).

 

 

It appears we see the sequencing of these events differently.  I disagree that the timing is altogether different regarding the events with the Euphrates.  I think we see in chapter 16 that a way is made for the enemy to begin their advance, and we see the unholy trinity preparing for the advance by gathering their troops.  In chapter 9 we see they encounter resistance on their way, this would be the battle depicted in chapter 19 where Satan is bound, but the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire.  I see the end comes very quickly, as Isaiah prophesied it would, and that the 6th and 7th judgements overlap and intersect each other.  I believe the great tribulation begins when the antichrist rises from the fatal head wound and implements the mark of the beast.  It is at this point that the remnant of Jews spoken of by the prophets flee Jerusalem, and that the city is given over to the Gentiles.  Remember also, that mystery Babylon gets a double portion, or two woes.  That would include the sounding of the 6th and 7th trumpets within a very specific hour of a very specific day.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

[wingnut-]

 

 

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

I'll start from the top and work my way down.

 

Salty:  I pretty much agree with that judgment of Satan's angels, but not really on the timing. Right now for me it's a toss-up between the Day of The Lord with Christ's coming or the later Great White Throne Judgment after the "thousand years. Remember that per Rev.12:7 forward, Satan and his angels are to be cast down to this earth with those on earth given a huge 'woe', because the devil knows he has a short time, and then tribulation events given along with it. So I believe his angels with him are going to be here on earth for the tribulation, which might actually be the 7,000 that perish on the 7th trumpet of Rev.11 when Jesus comes.

 

 

The timing is definitely the issue, and I agree with you that Satan and his angels are cast down in Revelation 12.  The question is, are they bound at that time.  It doesn't appear that they are involved much with what is happening, even when the enemy begins to gather the nations for war, it is done by spirits coming from the unholy trinity.  I also would offer this for your consideration regarding the angels perishing in battle.  They are spiritual beings, eternal beings, so there is no natural death for them, which would explain why they are bound.  Basically though, they can only suffer the second death, spiritual death.

 

Salty:  after considering it more, it's not likely that the angels in chains in the pit could be those cast down with Satan. I see those angels in chains kept in store as those who came down during Noah's days per Gen.6. I believe the 7,000 of Rev.11 may be a different group. Why do I think this?

 

It's because none born in the flesh are cast into the lake of fire (second death) until God's Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium, per Rev.20. I do not believe Christ's Millennium reign will involve anyone in a flesh body, all in a resurrection type body per one of the two types our Lord Jesus declared in John 5:28-29, those still alive changed to one of the two types. But in Rev.11 with the 7th trumpet, we are shown 7,000 in Jerusalem destroyed, and I believe that is pointing to a group of Satan's angels cast down with him per Rev.12:7>. Furthermore, I do not believe in the traditional idea of spirit not being able to manifest on earth with an image of man, since God's Word shows it happened all throughout His Word (like Gen.18 & 19; Heb.13). Satan and his angels when cast down will appear de facto, in person, on earth, and we all will see him and them with the image of man they were created with. That does not require they be born in a flesh body, as the Gen.18 & 19 examples again shows. It is this event for the very end that I believe is what makes the "great tribulation" such a time of great temptation by the supernatural manifested on earth in our dimension.

 

 

Salty:  I believe the 1290 and 1335 days are about the cleansing, and your Matt.25 reference that will begin when Jesus takes His reign upon David's throne on earth, His sheep He separates on His right hand being His Church that includes the foundation of Eph.2 and only those who have remained faithful to Him up to that time. Those of His Church that fell away will be joined with the 'goats' on His left hand, and walk spiritually naked in shame (Rev.16:15).

 

 

Obviously we see this differently because of our view on the millenium, but I understand what you are presenting.  You may well be right, but with the scripture we have to this point in regards to the millenium, I am still of the impression that the length of time is more likely a day.

 

Something you wrote there I cannot agree with, and it is that 200 million troops idea of Rev.9. That's actually referring to the locust prophecy from the Book of Joel, the locust army that God called His army that He sends, like for a punishment upon the earth. That timing of the 6th trumpet is actually tribulation timing, not Armageddon. I do not see that as a literal military army because of the Joel prophecy. Instead, I see them as being about Satan's host on earth working to set him up in power as king in Jerusalem during the tribulation timing, which flows all the way to Rev.11:14.

 

 

I'm not clear on what you are saying here exactly.  Do you think the 200 million troops are the enemy?  I agree with you that this is not Armageddon, that battle comes at the end of the millenium.  However, I do see this as the battle where the beast and the false prophet are disposed of, and Satan is bound up.

 

Do I see that 200 million of Rev.9 as the enemy? Definitely. Sorry but I have say, you have that timing wrong. The 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is the actual "great tribulation" timing. The Book of Joel parallels those events about that locust army. In Joel 2:25 when God called them His army He sent among us, it is by no means in the positive sense, nor an army that will destroy Satan and his host. It is... Satan's host. That can be discovered by studying the Book of Joel in parallel with Rev.9 about those locusts.

 

Look at the last 3 trumpets again. They each have a Woe connected with them, and begin at the end of Rev.8 and flow all the way to Rev.11:14 which is when Jesus comes with the Day of The Lord events. Those are 'woe' periods upon the earth. Also especially notice Rev.9:17-19 of exactly where... their 'power' is. It's from their 'mouths'. What comes out of one's mouth? Words. And in this case with that locust army, it is words that cause deception, and death to one's soul, because that timing is when Antichrist will be established as king in Jerusalem over all nations and peoples on the earth, with the majority believing he is God (2 Thess.2:4). Thus the type of killing Rev.9 is referring to is spiritual, death to one's soul for bowing in false worship to the Antichrist in place of Christ. So in that respect, what kind... of locust army really is that, one of literal military soldiers, or an army of Satan's host disguised as the "ministers of righteousness"? Believe it or not, this is exactly what Apostle Paul was hinting at in 2 Corinthians 11 about Satan disguised as an angel of light, and his ministers as ministers of righteousness. They're coming.

 

About Armageddon. That is a 7th trumpet/7th vial event; those of Ezek.38 coming upon Israel on the last day of this world. It is the final battle of this present world when our Lord Jesus returns on the Day of The Lord. The Gog/Magog event of Rev.20 is a "thousand years" after that. With the Gog/Magog mention at the end of Rev.20, there is no specific nation alignment given, as all those nations outside the "camp of the saints" are involved in that future time. But the Armageddon event with the Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38 involves a specific nation alignment, and today that nation alignment is almost complete except for Turkey (old area of Togarmah).

 

 

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

There are a couple of things I want to point out to you for consideration.  Forgive me for not covering everything in the post, but I think after this response you may see things differently.  First, I want to say that I acknowledge and do indeed see that the three woes are attached to the last three trumpets, the 5th, 6th, and 7th.  So to start, first let us look at what is said when Satan is finally banished from heaven for good.

 

Revelation 12:¹² Therefore rejoice, you heavens

    and you who dwell in them!

But woe to the earth and the sea,

    because the devil has gone down to you!

He is filled with fury,

    because he knows that his time is short.”

 

The first woe, so let us look at the fifth trumpet.

 

Revelation 9  The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. ² When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. ³ And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth.

 

Revelation 9:⁷ The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. ⁸ Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. ⁹ They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. ¹⁰ They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. ¹¹ They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).

¹² The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.

 

We see here that Satan reaches the earth, but the angels cast out with him are immediately out of the picture.  And I think that the locust army Joel speaks of is clearly represented right here, at the 5th trumpet.  The final two woes occur within a short time of each other, because they are the double portion mystery Babylon receives, and that is supported by what is said at the conclusion of chapter 11 below.

 

Revelation 11:⁴ The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

 

The sounding of the 7th trumpet immediately follows this, and the 7th trumpet is the third woe.

 

Now, regarding the 200 million mounted troops and why these are the good guys.

 

Revelation 9:¹³ The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. ¹⁴ It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” ¹⁵ And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. ¹⁶ The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

 

First we see from what is underlined above, the four angels are released to kill a third of mankind, correct?

 

¹⁷ The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. ¹⁸ A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. ¹⁹ The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.

²⁰ The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. ²¹ Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

 

The 200 million mounted troops are the good guys, we see them carrying out judgement from God as a result of the 6th trumpet.  The horses and riders kill a third of mankind with the plagues of fire, smoke, and sulfur.  Those that survive still do not repent, instead Satan will rally them for the final battle once he is released.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

[wingnut-]

 

 

 

Then should you consider the Living Waters reference for His elect actually referring to the eventual new heavens and a new time, because after the thousand years the wicked will not have right to it?

 

I very much believe the waters of Ezek.47 are for the Millennial timing. I do not believe that all waters on the earth will be healed in that Millennial time though:

 

Ezek.47

⁹ And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

¹⁰ And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

¹¹ But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

The living waters is both symbolic and literal.  Symbolically we see it applied to the Holy Spirit, and this is because all believers will inherit this.  At the same time, the river of life is a very literal river that will be part of the New Jerusalem.  This is what believers will inherit, and Jesus is the only way to heaven.  Believers will not face judgement, the living water is already ours in the symbolic sense, and once New Jerusalem comes down we will have it literally.  Non-believers do not have the Holy Spirit, no living water.  They cannot enter the New Jerusalem, no living water.  The only way to get the living water is to believe in Him, it is not for the wicked.  This is why I do not see these things as part of the millenium, but of eternity.  Along with the lack of support for this period being a thousand years.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

 

 

I actually see that River of the Waters of Life as more literal than symbolic. Christianity has had a long tradition with philosophizing it in symbolism, while Genesis 2 showed us early in God's Word that River was once established upon the ancient earth.

 

I well understand the symbolic principle you're comparing it to, but even with that River manifested on earth during Christ's Millennial reign, I don't see it applying to the wicked that will be in a place of separation outside the beloved city.

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

The problem with the picture you are painting is this.  If the wicked have no access to the city, and no access to the living water, they are doomed.  Without water they cannot survive one year, much less a thousand.  If they cannot enter the city, then they cannot possibly come up and worship Him as required.  So basically, they are doomed without having a chance, and that does not align with the character of God, who does not show favoritism.  Not to mention none of them would survive to get to the final battle.  That would mean that those inside the city, with access to the living water would have to represent the wicked in the end, but they cannot, because they have access to the living water and the city, so they cannot face the second death.  God is not going to ban them from the city, and then punish them for not coming into the city.

 

God bless you.

[wingnut-]

 

Hi wingnut,

 

Yes it would be good for you to explain how you arrive at your conclusion. Just to answer your question, `When do these things become holy?` These things being  the bells on the horses, the cooking pots in the Lord`s house,& every pot in Jerusalem & Judah. Thus we see that it is only on God`s holy mountain & surrounds that this is. As Isaiah 2  & Micah 4 describe. The time being when the Lord returns in power & great glory to deliver Israel & judge the nations. 

 

Look forward to your comments, wingnut, bro. Marilyn.

 

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

It appears we part ways right from the start lol.  As much as I love my cast iron skillet that I use for almost everything, it will not be with me when I enter paradise.  Scripture is very clear that we are taking nothing of this world with us, so when Zechariah tells us that these common, every day things will be holy, he is talking about eternity.  Zechariah is talking about the exact same things John later writes about in Revelation, they both end at the same place.  They end at the end, not at the millenium.

 

Again, you give the answer in your own comments above, "The time being when the Lord returns in power & great glory to deliver Israel & judge the nations."  When does the judging occur?  After the millenium sister, after the millenium.

 

God bless you.

[Marilyn C]

Hi wingnut,

 

Yes we do see Zechariah 14 differently. We`ve given it a good go so we may have to leave it there.

 

Look forward to chatting with you on other topics, bro. Marilyn.

[Salty]

 

Hello again salty,

 

There are a couple of things I want to point out to you for consideration.  Forgive me for not covering everything in the post, but I think after this response you may see things differently.  First, I want to say that I acknowledge and do indeed see that the three woes are attached to the last three trumpets, the 5th, 6th, and 7th.  So to start, first let us look at what is said when Satan is finally banished from heaven for good.

 

Revelation 12:¹² Therefore rejoice, you heavens

    and you who dwell in them!

But woe to the earth and the sea,

    because the devil has gone down to you!

He is filled with fury,

    because he knows that his time is short.”

 

The first woe, so let us look at the fifth trumpet.

 

Revelation 9  The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. ² When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. ³ And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth.

 

Revelation 9:⁷ The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. ⁸ Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. ⁹ They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. ¹⁰ They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. ¹¹ They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).

¹² The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.

 

We see here that Satan reaches the earth, but the angels cast out with him are immediately out of the picture.  And I think that the locust army Joel speaks of is clearly represented right here, at the 5th trumpet.  The final two woes occur within a short time of each other, because they are the double portion mystery Babylon receives, and that is supported by what is said at the conclusion of chapter 11 below.

 

Revelation 11:⁴ The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

 

The sounding of the 7th trumpet immediately follows this, and the 7th trumpet is the third woe.

 

Now, regarding the 200 million mounted troops and why these are the good guys.

 

Revelation 9:¹³ The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. ¹⁴ It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” ¹⁵ And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. ¹⁶ The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

 

First we see from what is underlined above, the four angels are released to kill a third of mankind, correct?

 

¹⁷ The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. ¹⁸ A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. ¹⁹ The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.

²⁰ The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. ²¹ Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

 

The 200 million mounted troops are the good guys, we see them carrying out judgement from God as a result of the 6th trumpet.  The horses and riders kill a third of mankind with the plagues of fire, smoke, and sulfur.  Those that survive still do not repent, instead Satan will rally them for the final battle once he is released.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

 

 

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree, because I in no way see that army of Rev.9 being God's army of angels, and especially not on that 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period.

 

One thing we cannot do, is compress the trumpet - woe periods together so that the flow of events given separately within each one get all jumbled up. If there is one area in Revelation which the events are absolutely chronological, it's the event flow with the three last trumpet - woe periods.

 

A major reason why the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period events are not the time of God's judgment upon the wicked is because His judgment begins on the day of Christ's second coming with the Day of The Lord events. What you're doing by assigning a judgment early there in Rev.9 with that army is moving the Day of The Lord up earlier than written. That is something those on the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine often do, though I know you said you did not believe in the Pre-trib rapture idea.

 

There are direct parallels with those horsemen of Rev.9 in the first part of the chapter with those after the 6th trumpet. The whole chapter is about the same locust army of the Book of Joel. And if you look back to Joel you'll easily discover they work against God's elect on earth.

 

Locusts:

Rev.9:3 - power to sting like scorpions

9:4-5 - can't hurt any green thing on earth, but only those not sealed, and still cannot kill them

9:7 - their shapes like horses prepared unto battle,

9:7 - on their heads were crowns "like" gold, a pointer to their not being literal soldiers

9:9 - had breastplates of iron, sound of chariots of many horses running to battle

9:10 - had tails "like" scorpions, sting in their tails.

 

After 6th trumpet of Rev.9:14

9:16 - the horsemen make up an army (but what kind of army?)

9:17 - breastplates of not only fire and brimstone, but also jacinth, a precious stone signifying priestly breastplates

9:17 - fire and brimstone issued out of their "mouths", not by swords, tanks, guns, etc.

9:18 - men killed by what came out of their "mouths", mentioned twice for emphasis (God's Word does this often when showing us a special point)

9:19 - For their power is in their "mouth", that's 3 times for emphasis.

9:19 - had tails like serpents, a direct connection to "that old serpent", Satan himself per Rev.12:9

 

The killing is spiritual, not killing of literal flesh. They represent Satan's host causing deception of false worship by what comes out of their "mouths". It's all heavy metaphor.

 

Per Rev.9:4-5, the locusts cannot kill those not sealed with God's seal, but only 'sting' those for five months. That stinging is the killing in the latter part of the chapter. It is the destroying of one's soul by accepting the coming Antichrist and his mark and image, so we cannot just throw away the rest of God's Word about these events for the end just because this Rev.9 chapter involves a lot of heavy metaphor. Our Lord mentioned the idea of their power being by what comes out of their "mouths" 3 times so we'd be sure and get this interpretation. And early in the chapter with telling us the locusts cannot hurt any green thing on earth, that's to let us know that He is giving us info about the end involving spiritual deception using strong metaphorical language.

 

Therefore, that one third that are killed (spiritually) is by worshipping the coming pseudo-messiah in place of Christ Jesus. That's what that locust army is connected to with what comes out of their mouths. Even further forward in Rev.12:15 we are shown again this idea of spiritual deception for the end by what comes out of one's mouth, this time our Lord Jesus using the idea of waters "as" a flood coming out of the serpent's mouth.

 

Those remaining of Rev.9 that were not killed by that plague of the locusts, represent Satan's followers on earth among the peoples in all nations, devil worshippers, worshipers of their own works they have made, murderers, thieves, sexually immoral, sorcerers, etc. Common sense ought to tell you, that if that locust army was coming to pass judgment and destroy the wicked, it should have been these! We're given that so we can 'know'... for certain, the one-third that are killed is involving spiritual deception in false worship to the coming Antichrist, moral but deceived people being fooled into thinking he is Christ, a specific warning that our Lord Jesus gave His Church for the very end, as did His Apostles.

 

All... of those events on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period flow together with the events in half of Rev.11. So what events are in Rev.11 to show what the timing on earth is?

 

Rev.11:1-2 - there is a temple of God on earth during this 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period. (7th trumpet hasn't sounded yet). Gentiles are given to tread the holy city (Jerusalem), and there are those who worship within this particular temple, pointing to it being on... the earth. So this is not about God's Heavenly temple. It's about a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem on earth for the last days. The 42 months the Gentiles tread the city correlate with the 42 months reign by the dragon given in Rev.13.

 

11:3-6 - God's two witnesses appear in Jerusalem for that 42 months (equal to 1260 days they prophesy). They will prophesy against the beast there at Jerusalem, this is tribulation timing, the "another beast" in rule on the earth.

 

11:7 - after the 1260 days, which is about the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" prophecy, the two witnesses are killed by the beast who ascends from the bottomless pit (well I wonder who that is?), with their dead bodies left laying in the street for 3 and 1/2 days. This is all still... 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing.

 

11:8 - we are told exactly where... the two witnesses are killed with their dead bodies left laying in the street, the city where our Lord Jesus was crucified, Jerusalem.

 

11:9-10 - the nations will see their dead bodies for 3 and 1/2 days; they will throw parties, give each other presents because the two witnesses who tormented them, meaning Satan is in... control over the nations during this 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period.

 

11:14 forward - the 7th trumpet - 3rd final woe occurs, all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and His Son, signifying the ending of the tribulation, end of Satan's reign, end of the wicked's control over the earth, and including the events on the Day of The Lord when Jesus comes to gather His Church and pour out His cup of wrath upon the wicked.

[Salty]

 

 

 

 

Then should you consider the Living Waters reference for His elect actually referring to the eventual new heavens and a new time, because after the thousand years the wicked will not have right to it?

 

I very much believe the waters of Ezek.47 are for the Millennial timing. I do not believe that all waters on the earth will be healed in that Millennial time though:

 

Ezek.47

⁹ And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

¹⁰ And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

¹¹ But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

The living waters is both symbolic and literal.  Symbolically we see it applied to the Holy Spirit, and this is because all believers will inherit this.  At the same time, the river of life is a very literal river that will be part of the New Jerusalem.  This is what believers will inherit, and Jesus is the only way to heaven.  Believers will not face judgement, the living water is already ours in the symbolic sense, and once New Jerusalem comes down we will have it literally.  Non-believers do not have the Holy Spirit, no living water.  They cannot enter the New Jerusalem, no living water.  The only way to get the living water is to believe in Him, it is not for the wicked.  This is why I do not see these things as part of the millenium, but of eternity.  Along with the lack of support for this period being a thousand years.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

 

 

I actually see that River of the Waters of Life as more literal than symbolic. Christianity has had a long tradition with philosophizing it in symbolism, while Genesis 2 showed us early in God's Word that River was once established upon the ancient earth.

 

I well understand the symbolic principle you're comparing it to, but even with that River manifested on earth during Christ's Millennial reign, I don't see it applying to the wicked that will be in a place of separation outside the beloved city.

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

The problem with the picture you are painting is this.  If the wicked have no access to the city, and no access to the living water, they are doomed.  Without water they cannot survive one year, much less a thousand.  If they cannot enter the city, then they cannot possibly come up and worship Him as required.  So basically, they are doomed without having a chance, and that does not align with the character of God, who does not show favoritism.  Not to mention none of them would survive to get to the final battle.  That would mean that those inside the city, with access to the living water would have to represent the wicked in the end, but they cannot, because they have access to the living water and the city, so they cannot face the second death.  God is not going to ban them from the city, and then punish them for not coming into the city.

 

God bless you.

 

 

I'm sorry, but you're simply thiking too much with your flesh. There is nothing written in God's Word about that time with the wicked not having access to any water outside the holy city. And your assumption that God's River on earth will be the only waters existing in that time is also just that, an assumption.

[Salty]

 

 

Hello again salty,

 

I'll work my way down from the top.

 

I agree with what you say above.  Satan is cast immediately into the lake of fire, just as the beast and false prophet were before him.  None of these three face judgement, their fate has already been decided.  The people with Satan at the final battle will die a natural death just as scripture tells us they will.  They still have to be judged with everyone else who died outside His grace, and they will be resurrected at the same time, this is the resurrection of the rest of the dead John speaks of in Revelation 20.  This happens at the end of the millenium.

 

I do not hold to that tradition based on Rev.20:5 about the "dead". They represent the 'spiritually' dead souls that will bow to Christ during His Millennial reign. Nor do I believe anyone... after Christ's return will have a flesh body anymore (see Isaiah 25, one of the chapters Apostle Paul was pulling from in 1 Corinthains 15 about death being swallowed up in victory; notice a vail mentioned there removed off of all peoples and nations).

 

So I don't get into ideas like one group is still living in the flesh, another group of resurrected wicked, etc. We all will have put on the "image of the heavenly" by that time of His thousand years reign, for the "second death" as even you said is not about destruction of one's flesh, but of one's spirit/soul.

 

When Jesus said don't fear those who can kill your body (flesh) but not your soul, that wasn't just specific only to believers on Him. Early on in God's Word we were shown about the "silver cord" connection between our flesh and our spirit, and that applying to all men born in the flesh.

 

John 5:28-29 is a Scripture many brethren seem to have difficulty with. Jesus showed the wicked dead will be raised to their type of resurrection on the day of His return also. Does that mean one group of wicked walking around in resurrection bodies, and another part still in flesh bodies during His reign? No. Simply too many problems with that which get away from Scripture. Some just have yet to understand that the change at the twinkling of an eye that Paul spoke of happens to all alive on the earth on the Day of The Lord. But only those who stand in Christ Jesus are gathered to Him on that day. Likewise with the wicked, they will all be in the same kind of heavenly body too and in a place of separation like Rev.22:14-15 reveals in connection with our Lord's Gospel teaching about the "outer darkness".

 

 

I agree with you somewhat on the first part, but I would say that God is going to consume all of the wicked at this point.  As for the angels, they already have eternal bodies, they are going to be bound and then face judgement because they already have the spiritual body.   Damnation is eternal punishment, the natural body would not hold up in the lake of fire, this is why there is a resurrection of the rest of the dead, they will get an eternal body as well.

 

Well, none born flesh are judged until after Christ's Millennium reign. I know you don't believe the "thousand years" written in Rev.20 is literal. I do. And I already showed you Isaiah Scripture that's enough where you ought to at least put that disbelief upon a shelf for a while.

 

The "image of the heavenly" is just a body, it is not our soul, though our soul is attached to it. Whether here or there, we need a body to get around in, which is what Apostle Paul was explaining in 2 Cor.5 that if our house made with hands were ever dissolved..., etc. The wicked will have that heavenly body also; having it does not mean automatic Salvation through Christ Jesus. Just as there are people in the flesh walking upon the earth today that have 'dead' souls being without Christ, likewise that's the condition of the souls of the wicked with the "image of the heavenly" body. One's soul ("this mortal") must also put on immortality through Faith on Christ Jesus is really the idea Apostle Paul was talking about as a requirement for Christ's Salvation, i.e., "born again" of The Spirit.

 

Recall that Isaiah Scripture I pointed you to. Compare that also with those dead that come forth at the Great White Throne Judgment. But don't leave out the idea per the OT prophets that Christ's future time of reign is going to especially be about a time of teaching those who erred (Isa.29; 33 if I recall). One of the jobs of the Israelite priest was teaching the people God's Word, the difference between the clean and unclen, holy and profane.

 

 

 

Yes, I understand this is one thing we do not agree on, and yes, I am saying that I believe the millenium is more likely a day than a thousand years.  The reasoning is rather simple.  If you have 100 eye witnesses to a murder, and 99 of them say it was the man in the black leather jacket who did it.  And 1 who says it was the woman in the red hoody that did it, I am going to go with the 99 every time.  I would look into what the 1 said, but if no evidence is found to corroborate the story, then I would have to dismiss it.  This is the case with the thousand years, it comes from 1 book, the rest say that it is a day, so at this point I am inclined to believe that.

 

Well, I showed you one OT Scripture, and there are others that you will have to go back and study, asking God's help. I cannot do that study for you, especially when it requires our Heavenly Father to give it by asking Him, and not me. I realize there are some denominations that don't believe in the "thousand years" at all, so if you have been raised up in one of those, only God could help you out of that.

 

It appears we see the sequencing of these events differently.  I disagree that the timing is altogether different regarding the events with the Euphrates.  I think we see in chapter 16 that a way is made for the enemy to begin their advance, and we see the unholy trinity preparing for the advance by gathering their troops.  In chapter 9 we see they encounter resistance on their way, this would be the battle depicted in chapter 19 where Satan is bound, but the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire.  I see the end comes very quickly, as Isaiah prophesied it would, and that the 6th and 7th judgements overlap and intersect each other.  I believe the great tribulation begins when the antichrist rises from the fatal head wound and implements the mark of the beast.  It is at this point that the remnant of Jews spoken of by the prophets flee Jerusalem, and that the city is given over to the Gentiles.  Remember also, that mystery Babylon gets a double portion, or two woes.  That would include the sounding of the 6th and 7th trumpets within a very specific hour of a very specific day.

 

Euphrates was the most northern border of the land God gave to Israel. The way our Lord Jesus is using it in Revelation is as a border of separation between His people and Satan's host. That is how it is being used symbolically in both Rev.9 and Rev.16, the difference being the first example is to show that border taken down to begin the "great tribulation" events, and the second time to show Satan's defeat with Christ's second coming and His army of angels He brings with Him from Heaven. In Rev.16, Euphrates being dried up represents the event God spoke of for the end of this present world per Zeph.3, His allowing Satan's army out of the northern quarters to come upon Israel on the last day, so He can destroy them and show the whole world Who The GOD really is. That will be the day of Paul's change at the twinkling of eye, and the time of God's consuming fire upon the earth per 2 Pet.3:10.

 

I look forward to your response, God bless you.

 

[wingnut-]

Hi wingnut,

 

Yes we do see Zechariah 14 differently. We`ve given it a good go so we may have to leave it there.

 

Look forward to chatting with you on other topics, bro. Marilyn.

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

I have enjoyed discussing things with you very much.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts and insight, and I look forward to chatting with you more in the future.  God bless you.