It is not in the Bible ?

[Guest shiloh357]

9 hours ago, RustyAngeL said:

Now I"m really confused.  Your saying John, her name is Jade. and in the stone,  And I have never heard of a woman name John.  Maybe you can clear this up. You said male, female or other, what else is there other male, female ?  what is other?

 

Cajun is no longer in this thread.

[Hoddie]

On Friday, August 05, 2016 at 1:14 AM, Logan said:

Mark 6:3 and the Gospel of Matthew 13:55-56

If these passages are the basis for your argument Logan, let me ask a question of you. In Mark 6:3, it mentions four of Jesus’ “brothers” and one of them is named James. Is the James, the brother of Jesus, in Mark 6:3 and the apostle James, the brother of the Lord, in Gal 1:19, the same person?

 

Peace
 

 

[Behold]

On 8/7/2016 at 6:20 PM, RustyAngeL said:

Correct Mary was not perfect, she needed a Savior just like all the rest of us.  

In Philippians, Paul said he was "blameless in the Law"......so, if that is the case and he needed a savior, then you can believe that Mary needed one also.

[Hoddie]

On Sunday, August 07, 2016 at 4:20 PM, RustyAngeL said:

Correct Mary was not perfect, she needed a Savior just like all the rest of us.

Beleive it or not RustyAngel, the Catholic Church agrees with you! The Church teaches that Mary was fully, absolutely human, just as human as you or me. And she was in need of a Savior just as much as you or me. There is no teaching that "she was perfect." Only Jesus was perfect. The Catholic Church teaches that she was preserved from sin, both the stain of original sin and the wound of ever committing actual sin — but that’s no reflection on Mary. She was not "perfect." It’s all about the power of Christ to save. Christ’s power to save is so perfect, so absolute, that He could save His mother from the very moment of her conception, to make her wholly clean and pure in preparation for His coming. That Mary did not sin does not mean that "she was perfect" — it means that Christ's grace is perfect. It is only by that grace that she was able to resist and avoid sin. And in the same way, we who are saved, who receive that same grace, have the power to resist sin! It does not mean that God is "less able to come all the way down to [the level of imperfect beings]  it means that, by God coming to every one of us, we all can be made perfect by His grace! When we Catholics say that Mary is "immaculate" which does not mean "perfect." "Immaculate" means "without a stain." "Perfect" means "completely finished." And we, just as Mary, are only "perfect" when we are "completely finished" works of grace.

In closing, I'll leave you with this scenario to ponder on. Say a fella (sinner) is mountain climbing and falls off a cliff. Now then lets say a gal (Mary) is heading for that same cliff, but her climbing partner help steers her from the cliff. Would you agree that the former needed a saviour, and the latter had a saviour? Both scenarios imply an absolute and unquestionable need for a Savior. Just replace "cliff" with "original sin". To say "only sinners need a Savior" is to say that only people that have fallen need saving.

In otherwords, don't go mountain climbing with someone who believes that only the fallen need saving.

　

Peace
 

[RustyAngeL]

On 8/7/2016 at 5:46 PM, coheir said:

The bible does not say Mary was perfect it says she was a virgin

Correct Mary was not perfect, she needed a Savior just like all the rest of us.  

[RustyAngeL]

1 hour ago, Hoddie said:

Beleive it or not RustyAngel, the Catholic Church agrees with you! The Church teaches that Mary was fully, absolutely human, just as human as you or me. And she was in need of a Savior just as much as you or me. There is no teaching that "she was perfect." Only Jesus was perfect. The Catholic Church teaches that she was preserved from sin, both the stain of original sin and the wound of ever committing actual sin — but that’s no reflection on Mary. She was not "perfect." It’s all about the power of Christ to save. Christ’s power to save is so perfect, so absolute, that He could save His mother from the very moment of her conception, to make her wholly clean and pure in preparation for His coming. That Mary did not sin does not mean that "she was perfect" — it means that Christ's grace is perfect. It is only by that grace that she was able to resist and avoid sin. And in the same way, we who are saved, who receive that same grace, have the power to resist sin! It does not mean that God is "less able to come all the way down to [the level of imperfect beings]  it means that, by God coming to every one of us, we all can be made perfect by His grace! When we Catholics say that Mary is "immaculate" which does not mean "perfect." "Immaculate" means "without a stain." "Perfect" means "completely finished." And we, just as Mary, are only "perfect" when we are "completely finished" works of grace.

In closing, I'll leave you with this scenario to ponder on. Say a fella (sinner) is mountain climbing and falls off a cliff. Now then lets say a gal (Mary) is heading for that same cliff, but her climbing partner help steers her from the cliff. Would you agree that the former needed a saviour, and the latter had a saviour? Both scenarios imply an absolute and unquestionable need for a Savior. Just replace "cliff" with "original sin". To say "only sinners need a Savior" is to say that only people that have fallen need saving.

In otherwords, don't go mountain climbing with someone who believes that only the fallen need saving.

　

Peace
 

I think I understand what you are saying... Yes.  But since we are all sinners, we all need a Savior.  But someone who is already saved they are the ones that need to point the unsaved to the foot of the cross.  I think I have all clear.  

And oh my I have always wondered why in the world you would go mountain climbing  with only a rope and another person that stands between you and the ground 5000 feet below  you.

Thanks Hoddie!

Blessings, RustyAngeL

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Hoddie

'    Welcome to Worthy....it is wonderful to see that you have Wisdom & Understanding as only REvealed to us by Holy Spirit,not rcc doctrine.....there are catholics(like yourself) that do have Understanding & many who do not,I will not go off_topic here and go into much detail about the teaching of any denomination....as long as you "get it" that's FANTASTIC!!! Praise Jesus!

     We do have many catholics here,some have understanding & some do not.....it is good for you to be able to help those that have misinterpreted or have been mislead,in Jesus Name .....

      We are each accountable & responsible for seeing what God Says Himself,we are truly Blessed to have his Written Word.....we can't always be quick to blame the rcc,the preachers ,the teachers.....Christians should be in a Personal & Intimate RElationship with our Lord and not simply take everyone else's word for what the Bible says..........                                                   Glory to God                                                                 With love-in Christ,Kwik

[coheir]

8 hours ago, Hoddie said:

Beleive it or not RustyAngel, the Catholic Church agrees with you! The Church teaches that Mary was fully, absolutely human, just as human as you or me. And she was in need of a Savior just as much as you or me. There is no teaching that "she was perfect." Only Jesus was perfect. The Catholic Church teaches that she was preserved from sin, both the stain of original sin and the wound of ever committing actual sin — but that’s no reflection on Mary. She was not "perfect." It’s all about the power of Christ to save. Christ’s power to save is so perfect, so absolute, that He could save His mother from the very moment of her conception, to make her wholly clean and pure in preparation for His coming. That Mary did not sin does not mean that "she was perfect" — it means that Christ's grace is perfect. It is only by that grace that she was able to resist and avoid sin. And in the same way, we who are saved, who receive that same grace, have the power to resist sin! It does not mean that God is "less able to come all the way down to [the level of imperfect beings]  it means that, by God coming to every one of us, we all can be made perfect by His grace! When we Catholics say that Mary is "immaculate" which does not mean "perfect." "Immaculate" means "without a stain." "Perfect" means "completely finished." And we, just as Mary, are only "perfect" when we are "completely finished" works of grace.

In closing, I'll leave you with this scenario to ponder on. Say a fella (sinner) is mountain climbing and falls off a cliff. Now then lets say a gal (Mary) is heading for that same cliff, but her climbing partner help steers her from the cliff. Would you agree that the former needed a saviour, and the latter had a saviour? Both scenarios imply an absolute and unquestionable need for a Savior. Just replace "cliff" with "original sin". To say "only sinners need a Savior" is to say that only people that have fallen need saving.

In otherwords, don't go mountain climbing with someone who believes that only the fallen need saving.

　

Peace
 

I have never read any thing that says Mary never sinned after giving birth to Jesus, where does that idea come from

[RustyAngeL]

She was a human as we were and are. 

[Hoddie]

19 hours ago, Davida said:

Hoddie , I appreciate your good intentions here to explain the Catholic ideas and I see you are trying to be a good natured  bridge which is wonderful.  At the same time, we get back to the question-- Where does the Bible say Mary was Immaculate? or without stain?  or sinless?  She was not made perfect anymore than the rest of the saved of the body of Christ. The problem is no where in the Bible is Mary shown to be lifted up, or to be given the Catholic titles or is there Biblical scripture that writes of the Catholic 'mary '  attributes of  compassionate mother, or Queen of heaven or an intercessor for sinners.    No where is there any message, scripture even giving any teachings about Mary Jesus mother let alone one that tells us that Mary is to be prayed to or given special honors or that she intervenes or is a guide. As a matter of fact that idea is directly a contradiction of what the BIBLE teaches. Not one of the books of the Bible written by Jesus disciples states anything about praying or honoring Mary and they would have known her and seen her. There is no books in the Bible written about Mary. Why did the disciple Peter not mention her?  Biblically, she was portrayed simply as Jesus mother , Jesus asked  his disciple John to look after her as his mother. In the Bible the mother of Jesus is given minimal notice --obviously for a reason , GOD knew what would happen in future generations & so every believer could see for themselves & believe in the Bible ONLY or follow after fables.

1Timothy 2:5 King James Bible
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

2Peter 1:15-17 " And I will make every effort to ensure that after my departure, you will be able to recall these things at all times. 16For we did not follow cleverly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17For He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice from the Majestic Glory said to Him, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”…"

 

Thanks Davida for your input to my post. You ask many questions. However, for space/ time constraints it would be impossible for me to address them in all one post. I will try to address only one or two (possibly three) in one post at a time.

With all due respect, as far as your first question: "Where does the Bible say Mary was Immaculate?" goes. By the wording of this question, one must conclude that you are a "Sola Scripturist" Which I beleive is unbiblical and a contradiction of what the bible teaches. The Bible never teaches that all we need to know is explicit in the bible, and that the bible is sufficient as a sole rule of faith. For example, where does it say in the bible that 27 books belong in the New Tesament? Where does it say public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle? Where does it say that we should refer to God as a "Trinity"? Most beleivers of the Sola Scriptura doctrine believe these, but are not in Scripture. The Church (Matt. 18:17) settled the matter.

Now for the question at hand, I feel it was addressed in my original post. However, as far as the biblical premise of Mary's sinlesness, I would have to point to the salutation given to Mary by the angel Gabriel in Luke 1:28; "Hail, Full of Grace". In Greek the word used for grace is "kecharitomene." We can say through the writings of Luke that Mary was the fullness of grace (sinless). How? Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates a perfection of grace that is both intensive and extensive. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angels visit, and was only as "full" or strong or complete as possible at any given time, but it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called "full of grace."

Off to the links for me. I will address your other questins at a later time.

Peace

　

[note to Coheir on your question]; "I have never read any thing that says Mary never sinned after giving birth to Jesus, where does that idea come from?"

I feel this answers your question aswell.

Peace