It is not in the Bible ?

[Hoddie]

7 minutes ago, Davida said:

Just what is the "Holy See" and where is the scripture reference?

Ask one of those former Catholics, they "should" know. If they don't, I'll fill ya in.  As for Scripture reference, sure after you show me where its says in the bible that Scripture alone (Sola Scriptura) is sufficent as a sole rule of faith.

 

Peace

[Hoddie]

6 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

This is the Holy See:

Question: "What is the Holy See?"



Answer: The term "Holy See" is from the Latin Sancta Sedes, meaning “holy chair.” It is said that the Holy See is the jurisdiction in Rome of the Catholic Church. In other words, it is similar to a government, which is not surprising considering that the Vatican is its own country and has its own money and its own laws. However, there is a difference between the Holy See, which dates back to early Christian times, and Vatican City, which came into existence in 1929 with the signing of the Lateran Treaty between the See and the Italian government. The Holy See is an episcopal designation, while Vatican City is primarily a political and diplomatic one.



The government of the Holy See includes tribunals, congregations, pontifical counsels and numerous other bureaucratic entities. Of course the pope is the head of the See, as he is considered the head of the Catholic Church. The secretariat of state is the second in command of the See and oversees the 175 diplomatic worldwide relationships and offices. The See is a member of numerous international organizations, including the United Nations.



From a biblical standpoint, the very existence of a Holy See is problematic on at least two points. First, the concept of a “holy chair” in which resides the head of the church is unscriptural. The true church is never to consider one man as its head, no matter his title. The exalted Head of the true Body of Christ is Jesus Christ, the living Head of the living church. How can the living church be headed by a mortal man who dies? Second, the Bible nowhere gives credence to the idea of the church forming its own city-state or its own government. The church as a political or diplomatic kingdom is unknown in Scripture. In fact, Jesus made it clear that His kingdom is not of this world (John 8:23; 18:36). The Bible never condones or encourages the establishment of earthly kingdoms or diplomatic entities because these things, by their very nature, focus attention on the world, which is passing away (1 Corinthians 7:31; 1 John 2:17). Christians are to be focused on the heavenly kingdom and our only diplomatic efforts are to be spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ and warning others of the wrath to come.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-See.html

Really....gotquestions.org.... thats your source???   They are about as anti-Catholic as you can get. Thats like asking the Ku Klux Klan to give their views on African Americans!  You'll have to do better than that!

 

Peace

[Hoddie]

23 minutes ago, Davida said:

Just what is the "Holy See" and where is the scripture reference?

And those Catholic writings Davida,  declairing Catholics are to worship Mary?  From official Catholic sources, like the Catechism of the Catholic Church for starters,or maybe the Holy See, not from one of the many anti-Catholic web sites. (like gotquestions.org)  How you doing on those?

 

Peace

[missmuffet]

5 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

 

 

Really....gotquestions.org.... thats your source???   They are about as anti-Catholic as you can get. Thats like asking the Ku Klux Klan to give their views on African Americans!  You'll have to do better than that!

 

 

 

 

 

Peace

Anti Catholic? It is a reputable Christian Ministry on the internet. If they are anti Catholic they are only telling the truth.

[ayin jade]

31 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

Then maybe you and these former Catholics should have no problem bringing up these Catholic writings declairing Catholics are to worship Mary. . From official Catholic sources that is, like the Catechism of the Catholic Church for starters,or maybe the Holy See, not from one of the many anti-Catholic web sites.

I will be patiently waiting.

 

Peace

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517
 

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

That is worship. Mary continues to bring salvation? She is given titles that Jesus called the Holy Spirit? That she is a mediatrix? Heresy! That she is given special worship? Idolatry!

[missmuffet]

1 minute ago, Davida said:

Thanks all the same Miss muffet, don't need the definition.  

 

I was asking Hoddie - specifically-- for reasons having to do with the discussion we have been having for several days now and I still would like Hoddie to answer my question, thanks!

 

Just replying to your " Just what is the "Holy See" and where is the scripture reference?"

[Hoddie]

3 hours ago, ayin jade said:

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by

her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

Did you not see the part of manifold intercession? And I fail to see where it says we are to worship her. I also noticed where you skipped over 970. Whys that? Let's see.

970:"Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men … flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."

See the part ..." "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer" Again.... nowhere does it say Catholics are to worship Mary.

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "

The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

Again... can't see where it says Catholics are to worship Mary. Although it does say..."

"The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion" Hmmm.... theres that word honor again.

That is worship. Mary continues to bring salvation? She is given titles that Jesus called the Holy Spirit? That she is a mediatrix? Heresy! That she is given special worship? Idolatry!

That may be what your fallible opinion thinks it says. However the Catechism also says in #2675: "Jesus, the only mediator, is the way of our prayer; Mary, his mother and ours, is wholly transparent to him...the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries."

We Catholics see an interesting comparison between Mary, the mother of Jesus, and Eve in Genesis. Eve stands between the human race and sin and the Fall. She is in a sense the "mediatrix" of original sin (Gen 3:3-24). Catholics believe Mary's "yes" (Lk 1:2) to God and his plan of redemption, reversed Eve's "no" and reversed Eve's refusal to obey and cooperate with God. Mary's "yes" and cooperation with Grace blew away Eve's "no" and fall from Grace. Catholics think it is not by accident that Eve (the woman) came out of the body of Adam (the man), and that Jesus (the man/God) came out of the body of Mary (the woman). This view was put forth by St. Justin who lived from about 110 to 165 A.D. and is consistent with Paul's comparison of Jesus to Adam.

Catholics believe Mary spells out her role in eternity in Luke 1:46-49: "My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. For He has regarded the lowly state of his maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed."

So her role is to magnify the Lord and rejoice in God her Saviour. She is to be humble (which she is). In order for a magnifying glass to magnify something, one must look through it at the object. The magnifying glass is not the thing that we are looking at. In fact, if we focus on the magnifying glass, we will not see the object that is magnified. In the same way Catholics look through Mary at Jesus. Catholics believe that is what Mary has asked. That is what Catholics call "Mediatrix." In this passage of Luke, We also have been called upon to do something: to call her blessed. This is for all generations, all people and especially all Christians, you included, not just a few little old Catholic ladies.

Even the father of Protestantism, Martin Luther spoke to Mary in the first person saying: "No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537)."

It was a good attempt ayin jade, unfortunately your argument that Catholics worship/idolatry Mary fails.

　

Peace

[ayin jade]

A rose by any other name still stinks.

[Hippie333]

Invocation of Mary

Not only do we honor Mary; we also invoke her or ask her intercession. Some objectors say that we should pray to God alone. Well, Catholics certainly pray directly to God, for they regard the Our Father as the best and most beautiful of all prayers and frequently recite it. But they pray also to Mary, asking her to intercede for them with her divine Son

source:

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/devotion-to-the-blessed-virgin

They start the article saying they don't ... but the article then goes on to illustrate how they "do" and call it other things. It's always been the same rhetoric ...venerable image... honor etc., but in the end they still pray to Mary and the Saints - whether it be for intercession or worship it's NOT praying to God thru Christ for intercession...which by any turn still means praying to someone other than Christ for intercession to God is not only blasphemous...but idolatry.

 

 

 

Clark:

Luke 1:48

He hath regarded - Looked favorably, etc., επεβλεψεν. In the most tender and compassionate manner he has visited me in my humiliation, drawing the reasons of his conduct, not from any excellence in me, but from his own eternal kindness and love.
All generations shall call me blessed - This was the character by which alone she wished to be known; viz. The blessed or happy virgin. What dishonor do those do to this holy woman, who give her names and characters which her pure soul would abhor; and which properly belong to God her Savior! By her votaries she is addressed as Queen of Heaven, Mother of God, etc., titles both absurd and blasphemous.

Barnes:

Luke 1:48

He hath regarded the low estate of his handmaid - Literally, he has looked upon the low or humble condition of his handmaid. That is, notwithstanding her humble rank and poverty, he has shown her favor. And this example abundantly teaches what is elsewhere fully taught in the Bible, that God is not a respecter of persons; that he is not influenced, in conferring favors, by wealth, honor, or office, Rom_2:11; Rom_10:11-12. He seeks the humble and the contrite; he imparts his rich blessings to those who feel that they need them, and who will bless him for them, Psa_138:6; Isa_57:15.
From henceforth - Hereafter, or in consequence of this.
All generations - All people. All posterity.
Call me blessed - Pronounce me highly favored or happy in being the mother of the Messiah. It is therefore right to consider her as highly favored or happy; but this certainly does not warrant us to worship her or to pray to her. Abraham was blessed in being the father of the faithful; Paul in being the apostle to the Gentiles; Peter in first preaching the gospel to them; but who would think of worshipping or praying to Abraham, Paul, or Peter?

 

 

God Bless,

Hip

 

[FresnoJoe]

On 8/14/2016 at 3:30 PM, wincam said:

so how about bowing down and praying to two pieces of dead wood....
and moldy old dough....

Two Sticks Of Dead Wood

But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,
by which the world has been crucified to me,
and I to the world. Galatians 6:14 (English Standard Version)

And Moldy Old Dough

"Timeless truth I speak to you:
'Whoever trusts in me has eternal life.'"
"I AM THE LIVING GOD,
The Bread of Life."

"Your forefathers ate manna in the wilderness and they died." "This is The Bread that came down from Heaven, that a man may eat of it and he shall not die."

"I AM THE LIVING GOD, The Living Bread, who have come down from Heaven, and if a man will eat of this bread, he will live for eternity, and the bread that I shall give is my body that I give for the sake of the life of the world." John 6:47-51 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)

?

What
Gang Mocks
That Dear Jew, Mary
Calling Her The Queen Of Heaven (One Nasty Demon Of Old)

“As for you, do not pray for this people, and do not lift up cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with Me; for I do not hear you. “Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?

“The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods in order to spite Me. “Do they spite Me?” declares the LORD. “Is it not themselves they spite, to their own shame?”

Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, My anger and My wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and on beast and on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground; and it will burn and not be quenched.” Jeremiah 7:16-20 (English Standard Version)

While Delighting In Crucifying Jesus At Every Chance

Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. 1 Peter 3:18 (New Living Translation)

And Pointing The Precious RCC Believer

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 (New International Version)

Away From The Prince

A child will be born for us. A son will be given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. He will be named: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 (GOD'S WORD® Translation)

Of Peace

For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (American King James Version)

Who?

Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For there are certain men who crept in secretly, even those who were long ago written about for this condemnation: ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into indecency, and denying our only Master, God, and Lord, Jesus Christ. Jude 1:3-4 (World English Bible)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe