Outer Darkness

[RustyAngeL]

On 10/6/2016 at 4:18 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Nope, you haven't flipped your lid   It is an interesting subject though. I too believe time was created for us and we may live in more than a four dimensional world we can not see into. Based on a Biblical example of a donkey, of which I forgot where it is at the moment, I took it as if that donkey (maybe other animals too) was seeing something in the spiritual world. Now I'm going to have to hunt that one up.

I previously said 'four' because along with Einstein, it has pretty much been proven 'time' is a fabric and physical property and changes depending on the person, speed and gravity. Time is not the same for everyone. It's pretty much been proven we live in a digital simulation, compared to an analog. 

Examples: With analog anything in theory you could keep dividing it forever. With both matter and time, once you divide it down to roughly 10 to the 33 power, it ceases to exist at all. Least wise, that's the stuff I've been studying anyway. It makes sense that if the supernatural acts with and upon us, they have to be here at the same place and same time. A dimension we can not see into would fit very nicely I think?

Four dimensional world, oh my I have enough of a problem living in one!!

[SavedOnebyGrace]

On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 5:18 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Nope, you haven't flipped your lid   It is an interesting subject though. I too believe time was created for us and we may live in more than a four dimensional world we can not see into. Based on a Biblical example of a donkey, of which I forgot where it is at the moment, I took it as if that donkey (maybe other animals too) was seeing something in the spiritual world. Now I'm going to have to hunt that one up.

I previously said 'four' because along with Einstein, it has pretty much been proven 'time' is a fabric and physical property and changes depending on the person, speed and gravity. Time is not the same for everyone. It's pretty much been proven we live in a digital simulation, compared to an analog. 

Examples: With analog anything in theory you could keep dividing it forever. With both matter and time, once you divide it down to roughly 10 to the 33 power, it ceases to exist at all. Least wise, that's the stuff I've been studying anyway. It makes sense that if the supernatural acts with and upon us, they have to be here at the same place and same time. A dimension we can not see into would fit very nicely I think?

Scientists and Engineers (I am one) don't really have a precise method of working with infinity.  So they've approximated infinity using digital algorithms that approach the accuracy of their measurement limitations.  True hyperbolic functions would never end.  The time between one second and second two is, of course, 1 second.  But when you look at that finite 1 second duration and perform an infinite number of divisions, you arrive at an infinite number.  So scientists/engineers cheat and approximate these divisions digitally.  What is the value of pi?  It's a non-repeating infinite number.  You can't digitize pi without approximating its value.

A true audiophile can tell the difference between an analog recording and a digital recording (I was in the music business once upon a time).  A digital recording can approximate the pure frequency response of music, but it can never actually achieve it.  It may do so to the extent that I can't tell the difference, but a true audiophile can.

So what does this have to do with living in a digital world?  A digital world is an approximation of the true analog world we live in.  It can lead a person to believe in some very un-Christian and un-scientific ideas.  I have a link that I've now decided not to post as the information may be a stumbling block to some.  Let's just say that we live in a perfectly controlled universe, not a digital approximation of reality.  I thank God through Jesus Christ for holding it all together.

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Scientists and Engineers (I am one) don't really have a precise method of working with infinity.  So they've approximated infinity using digital algorithms that approach the accuracy of their measurement limitations.  True hyperbolic functions would never end.  The time between one second and second two is, of course, 1 second.  But when you look at that finite 1 second duration and perform an infinite number of divisions, you arrive at an infinite number.  So scientists/engineers cheat and approximate these divisions digitally.  What is the value of pi?  It's a non-repeating infinite number.  You can't digitize pi without approximating its value.

A true audiophile can tell the difference between an analog recording and a digital recording (I was in the music business once upon a time).  A digital recording can approximate the pure frequency response of music, but it can never actually achieve it.  It may do so to the extent that I can't tell the difference, but a true audiophile can.

So what does this have to do with living in a digital world?  A digital world is an approximation of the true analog world we live in.  It can lead a person to believe in some very un-Christian and un-scientific ideas.  I have a link that I've now decided not to post as the information may be a stumbling block to some.  Let's just say that we live in a perfectly controlled universe, not a digital approximation of reality.  I thank God through Jesus Christ for holding it all together.

Interesting subject indeed. I'm glad you know much more on the subject than I. But perhaps I didn't express what I had intended, and maybe if I'm wrong you could clarify? 

Take an atom, any atom, with its proton(s) and electron(s) comprising it.  Calculate the atoms volume and its over 99% nothing and less than <1% matter. If you pound for instance, a podium with your fist, it feels solid, but it's actually full of emptiness, and theoretically your fist should pass all the way through it. What meets resistance is the outer shells of the atoms. Am I correct in my assumption?

Your opinion is that a piece of matter can continually be divided in half forever, as in analog? What I'm studying is at about 10 to the 33rd power, matter either ceases to exist or loses locality and is everywhere. By definition, that would classify it as digital in nature, and not analog. What's your thoughts?

If that is fact, that would mean we live and are placed in a digital world, not an analog. Would that even make a difference? 

[SavedOnebyGrace]

18 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Interesting subject indeed. I'm glad you know much more on the subject than I. But perhaps I didn't express what I had intended, and maybe if I'm wrong you could clarify? 

Take an atom, any atom, with its proton(s) and electron(s) comprising it.  Calculate the atoms volume and its over 99% nothing and less than <1% matter. If you pound for instance, a podium with your fist, it feels solid, but it's actually full of emptiness, and theoretically your fist should pass all the way through it. What meets resistance is the outer shells of the atoms. Am I correct in my assumption?

Your opinion is that a piece of matter can continually be divided in half forever, as in analog? What I'm studying is at about 10 to the 33rd power, matter either ceases to exist or loses locality and is everywhere. By definition, that would classify it as digital in nature, and not analog. What's your thoughts?

If that is fact, that would mean we live and are placed in a digital world, not an analog. Would that even make a difference? 

Are you basing your analysis on Avogadro's number, 6.0221409 x 10²³ atoms/molecules per mole?  Even that is not an exact number.  It's an experimental number.  Although molecules are made up of a atoms, atoms are composed of a nucleus and one or more electrons bound to the nucleus. The nucleus is made of one or more protons and typically a similar number of neutrons.  Protons and neutrons are called nucleons.  More than 99.94% of an atom's mass is in the nucleus. The protons have a positive electric charge, the electrons have a negative electric charge, and the neutrons have no electric charge. If the number of protons and electrons are equal, that atom is electrically neutral. If an atom has more or fewer electrons than protons, then it has an overall negative or positive charge, respectively, and it is called an ion.

If I remember my chemistry right, electrons occupy the space around the nucleus.  A molecule may share electrons in a molecule forming a chemical bond; CH₄ for example.  So are you really feeling the surface of an atom or are you really feeling the surface created by spinning electrons?

But the argument is immaterial if one considers space.  If you measure the distance between one object in a vacuum versus a second object in the same vacuum, that distance can be subdivided an infinite number of times.  It is not dependent upon molecules in the extreme vacuum of space.  I was considering your post on that basis.

But when you consider an atom, it's not the smallest component.  There's a whole field of study going on looking at subatomic particles.  It's fascinating how God has created suns bigger than our solar system with these same basic infinitely small particles.  Even though the boson (the god particle) has been found, I wouldn't be shocked to find even smaller objects as our measurement techniques "evolve".

[Enoch2021]

On 11/4/2016 at 1:02 PM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Scientists and Engineers (I am one) don't really have a precise method of working with infinity. 

There is no such animal as Infinity; Mathematically or in 'Reality'.

To refute, please show 'Infinity'...?

 

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What is the value of pi?  It's a non-repeating infinite number.

1.   It's a Number....i.e., a human, abstract construct.

2.  It's a 'Finite' Number ( A Real Looong One) but nevertheless 'Finite'.

 

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The time between one second and second two is, of course, 1 second.  But when you look at that finite 1 second duration and perform an infinite number of divisions, you arrive at an infinite number.

That's why there's a difference between the 'Immaterially Abstract' and 'Physical Reality'.

 

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A digital world is an approximation of the true analog world we live in.

You heard of Quantum Mechanics, by chance??  You know, the most Experimentally VALIDATED discipline in the History of 'Real Science'?

Quantum --- 'Discrete Finite Chunks ---Pixelated---Digital'...Everything in the Physical World is Quantized (!!) --- the Antithesis of Analog.

And since...

"The Laws of Physics are always Quantum Mechanical Laws...you don't have separate laws for big and small things. The real question is: how do these very same laws when applied to big things, by big things I mean the things you see in daily life, GIVE THE IMPRESSION that the world is Newtonian?". {emphasis mine}

Ramamurti Shankar; Professor of Physics, Yale. 

Quantum Mechanics II.  (33:50 minute mark)

So, how does it feel to hold a position in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to established Scientific Experiment and the Laws of Physics?

 

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It can lead a person to believe in some very un-Christian and un-scientific ideas.  I have a link that I've now decided not to post as the information may be a stumbling block to some.

You've already "Cup Overfloweth" with 'un-scientific ideas', so posting another will be barely palpable.  Go ahead with your 'link'...?

 

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Let's just say that we live in a perfectly controlled universe, not a digital approximation of reality.

Let's just say it's 'Digital' then post over 5,000 Experiments (Without Exception!!) that SUPPORT what we say -- and what every current entry level High School Physics Student knows Apodictically!

And doesn't 'Controlled' directly point to 'Digital' ?

 

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I thank God through Jesus Christ for holding it all together.

Well, you finally got something right.

 

regards

[siegi91]

On 06/08/2016 at 0:54 AM, kwikphilly said:

Blessings....

    I was reading a Thread here about God is Light   the OP speaks asks about the nature of light,light from the Solar Sun, but what is the nature of that light from a scientific standpoint?  He says light makes up both visible and invisible attributes.  Doesn't God have both visible and invisible attributes?  Anyway, I started to think about the opposite,darkness,the outer darkness..........out of the Presence of God....     What is the nature of darkness & "outer darkness" from a scientific standpoint? Gods Word says this is the place that the unprofitable servant will go,where?The fallen angels left their first estate,Heaven....the Presence of God,right? But God is everywhere,isn't He?

I have some thoughts I will share later but I'm wondering what y'all have to contribute,I know Saved.One & post will offer much-lol     Praise Jesus!

 

                                                                                                                                                                          With love-in Christ,Kwik

Classically, lght is electromagnetic radiation. That means the oscillation of coupled electro and magnetic fields. This radiation does not need a medium to be transmitted in space, unlike things like sound, which cannot propagate without air.

From a quantum mechanical point of view, light is made of particles which are called photons. We know that they are particles because when you illuminate a photo detector, especially with very dim lght, you can hear the single ticks. 

What we know today is that photons are bosons, ergo particles with zero spin which are usually mediators of a force, in this case the electromagnetic force. These photons have also the property of having zero rest mass, that is, they can only travel at the speed of, well, light.

Darkeness, and its lack, are psychological concepts, and as such are mainly the result of what the brain computes.. And darkness does not entail the absence of light. For instance I can sit in the dark while being immersed in very intense light. For instance, ultraviolet or infrared light. The fact that we think it is dark, does not entail that there is no light; it just entails that, if there are photons around, then they have energies that go beyond the range we can see. We might not see anything, but we might still get a sun tan from that form of light.

Otherwise, we perceive light, especially from the sun, because the photons emitted from the sun have a wide spectrum of energies, which includes also the ones that our brain can perceive. In general, a flow of photons with all different energies, is perceived by us a white. But this white is just the sum of all different colors, ergo energy levels of those photons. This is clear when we realize that a veil of rain, working as a diffraction grating,  is enough to separate those photons into the different energy levels and produce what we perceive as a rainbow.

The perception of visible light is caused by these photons hitting our retina and sending an electrical impulse to the rest of the brain that computes what we perceive as "light". And things have colors because they absorb some of those many different photons at different energies, while reflecting the rest. So, we see red if only low energy photons are reflected, violet if only high energy level photons are reflected and the same for all intermediate colors.

For instance, the color of the sun becomes red if you have a filter in the middle that absorbs all the higher energy levels. For instance a thick stratum of air. Our retina will just then receive only those low energy levels left, transmit them to the rest of the brain,  the brain computes and activates some muscles that generate sound waves that anothe brain can perceive as " what a great sunset!".

We are not the only beings able to see colors. For instance, the fact that flowers have colors seems to be a natural adaptation to insects seeing at least a restricted set of colors, too. 

Hope it helped.

 siegi

 

 

Edited November 27, 2016 by siegi91

[kwikphilly]

Hi Siegi

Well,I think you're summarization is certainly a good start for this part of my OP

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He says light makes up both visible and invisible attributes.  Doesn't God have both visible and invisible attributes?  Anyway, I started to think about the opposite,darkness,the outer darkness..........out of the Presence of God....     What is the nature of darkness & "outer darkness" from a scientific standpoint? Gods Word says this is the place that the unprofitable servant will go,where?The fallen angels left their first estate,Heaven....the Presence of God,right? But God is everywhere,isn't He?

Since you say darkness is not the absence of light & go on into a more in depth explanation wouldn't it be more accurate to say that darkness is the absence of VISIBLE light?I only say this so our readers get a better understanding of what you are saying & would like to tie this all in with my Topic.....which is that PLACE of Outer Darkness from a scientific standpoint....the nature of darkness,is it a place?Is there any place (iyo) that would really be "darkness" or merely what we perceive,would you call it an invisible attribute?   Do you know what I mean?

                                                                                                        Thanks so much for participating            With love-in Christ,Kwik

[siegi91]

12 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Hi Siegi

Well,I think you're summarization is certainly a good start for this part of my OP

Since you say darkness is not the absence of light & go on into a more in depth explanation wouldn't it be more accurate to say that darkness is the absence of VISIBLE light?I only say this so our readers get a better understanding of what you are saying & would like to tie this all in with my Topic.....which is that PLACE of Outer Darkness from a scientific standpoint....the nature of darkness,is it a place?Is there any place (iyo) that would really be "darkness" or merely what we perceive,would you call it an invisible attribute?   Do you know what I mean?

                                                                                                        Thanks so much for participating            With love-in Christ,Kwik

Hi Kwik

it depends. If we assocciate "darkness" with what humans can see, then yes, by definition darkness is the absense of visible light. Tautologically.

To be honest with you, I do not understand what you mean with "Place of outer darkness from a scientific perspective".

If you mean a place in our Universe, then I do not think there is a really dark place, with the possible exception of black holes.

Even the most remote and apparently dark places are immersed in a radiation bath which has pretty low energy, but still greater than zero. We cannot see it, obviously, being far beyond the red on the energy scala, but it is light nevertheless. This radiation bath is a vestige of the Big Bang which occurred 13.8 billions years ago, from our vantage point, and it is more or less the same no matter where you are or looking.

As concerns places outside our universe, I cannot tell. For what we know, there is nothing outside our universe, independently from our universe being finite or infinite in extension. I think there is no space nor time outside our universe, since space and time  are physical components of our Universe itself.

 siegi

 

 

 

 

[kwikphilly]

Hiya siegi!!!!

   Oh boy would I like to talk some more with you but unfortunately I just had surgery and I am in & out of Worthy as needed so I can't really have a steady conversation right now but this is exactly what I wanted to get into

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If you mean a place in our Universe, then I do not think there is a really dark place, with the possible exception of black holes.

You see,Gods Word describes this Outer Darkness as a place......or perhaps a state of being? Hmmm,those invisible attributes I was referring to(perhaps "black holes").....I do hope you will be available to talk more on the subject when I can devote more time & reply properly? You know we are Christians & believe the infallable, Inspired by God,Written Word so there are those of us that like to dig deep    We do,of course,walk by Faith & not by sight & so there are times we will simply accept that if God Says it is so,it is so but more often than not we can find out much more that gives us better understanding,even with our finite minds-lol    Look forward to talking more but I have to go now    You are very nice to talk with,God Bless you                           With love-in Christ,Kwik

[JTC]

Here are some more mind twisting ideas.

1. Time isn't real. What I mean is there's no past you can travel to nor a future you can travel to. Time only seems to exist bc we're mortal and everything around us is physical. Now it may be possible to slow the passage of time for us and then you'd be in a future where everything has changed. But you can never come back bc the only thing real is NOW. For God, who is immortal, time has no meaning.

2. God is every where because everything is God.

3. I have a problem with the idea of other dimensions bc there's no proof they exist. No one's ever gone to one. Same problem with multiple universes. It's science fiction fantasy as far as I'm concerned.

Btw, for the sake of preserving my sanity I quit trying to figure this stuff out a long time ago. It's anxiety provoking.