Characteristics of the Little Horn Daniel 7

[brakelite]

19 minutes ago, ghtan said:

I take it then that you think the rock that is cut out from the mountain is the millennial kingdom which Jesus will set up after his return. Why then does the dream picture it growing subsequently into a huge mountain to fill the whole earth? Sounds to me more like the spread of the gospel after Jesus' first coming.

I do not accept the common teaching of an earthly millennial kingdom. As per John 14:1-3, I believe Jesus comes for His church, and takes it back to heaven with Him where we will enjoy partaking as guests at the wedding feast. The rock does indeed destroy all of those kingdoms at the second coming, but there is no time-frame requiring the filling of the whole earth immediately at that point. At the end of the 1000 years, when the wicked are all raised to judgement, is when the Holy City descends out of heaven, the wicked are destroyed, and the new earth and new heaven are established..."filling the whole earth with His glory".

[brakelite]

Having said and posted the above, I am however still in favor of the little horn coming from one of the four winds, or directions of the compass as would be implied within the text. And why choose Rome as opposed to the Apache nation or Mongols? Because as I said, this is just one of at least 10 distinct characteristics or criteria that can be applied to Rome, and Rome only. One must take the whole of scripture into account, and not reject one aspect because there is within it some room for doubt or debate.

It must also be said that the passage I was initially discussing was from Daniel 7, the little horn from the 4th beast. That 4th beast cannot be the "Caliphates" as you may be possibly suggesting, as they do not meet all the criteria in as a precise way as does the Roman Papal apostasy. And to then believe that from those "Caliphates", will arise a future "antichrist" completely lets the papacy off the hook, as if 1500 years of almost continuous persecution of Christians and so-called "heretics" and deep seated pagan philosophy and counterfeit Christian dogma went unnoticed by God.

Edited August 28, 2016 by brakelite

[ghtan]

4 hours ago, brakelite said:

I do not accept the common teaching of an earthly millennial kingdom. As per John 14:1-3, I believe Jesus comes for His church, and takes it back to heaven with Him where we will enjoy partaking as guests at the wedding feast. The rock does indeed destroy all of those kingdoms at the second coming, but there is no time-frame requiring the filling of the whole earth immediately at that point. At the end of the 1000 years, when the wicked are all raised to judgement, is when the Holy City descends out of heaven, the wicked are destroyed, and the new earth and new heaven are established..."filling the whole earth with His glory".

What then is this rock that destroys all the kingdoms at Jesus' second coming?

[existential mabel]

just a wee humble observation  - oh gosh that is an interesting thought with the earth quake in central Italy -

Quote

The fourth beast represents Rome, the little horn power grows out of Rome

 

[brakelite]

29 minutes ago, ghtan said:

What then is this rock that destroys all the kingdoms at Jesus' second coming?

....1 Corinthians 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

[Sister]

13 hours ago, brakelite said:

I do not accept the common teaching of an earthly millennial kingdom. As per John 14:1-3, I believe Jesus comes for His church, and takes it back to heaven with Him where we will enjoy partaking as guests at the wedding feast. The rock does indeed destroy all of those kingdoms at the second coming, but there is no time-frame requiring the filling of the whole earth immediately at that point. At the end of the 1000 years, when the wicked are all raised to judgement, is when the Holy City descends out of heaven, the wicked are destroyed, and the new earth and new heaven are established..."filling the whole earth with His glory".

Hi Brakelite

Please consider these scriptures

 Zechariah 14:16   And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

  Zechariah 14:17   And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

  Zechariah 14:18   And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

  Zechariah 14:19   This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

  Joel 3:16   The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

  Joel 3:17   So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

  Joel 3:18   And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

  Joel 3:19   Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

  Joel 3:20   But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

Jerusalem will continue for 10 generations.

1 generation will  = 100yrs (during the millennium), because men will live for a hundred years.

Isaiah 65:20   There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

10 generations = 1000 yrs.

  Joel 3:21   For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

 

[brakelite]

5 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Brakelite

Please consider these scriptures

 Zechariah 14:16   And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

  Zechariah 14:17   And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

  Zechariah 14:18   And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

  Zechariah 14:19   This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

  Joel 3:16   The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

  Joel 3:17   So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

  Joel 3:18   And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

  Joel 3:19   Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

  Joel 3:20   But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

Jerusalem will continue for 10 generations.

1 generation will  = 100yrs (during the millennium), because men will live for a hundred years.

Isaiah 65:20   There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

10 generations = 1000 yrs.

  Joel 3:21   For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

 

I am a Bible believing Christian, so I don't have a problem with the verses you have quoted, I am as convinced as anyone that there is coming a time when we will all enjoy the earth as it was intended to be in Eden. The question is when? Why does God need a practice run before committing Himself fully? Why should we? When the Lord returns there will be no more sinners alive in the planet...and we will be in heaven enjoying the marriage supper of the Lamb.

[Sister]

4 hours ago, brakelite said:

I am a Bible believing Christian, so I don't have a problem with the verses you have quoted, I am as convinced as anyone that there is coming a time when we will all enjoy the earth as it was intended to be in Eden. The question is when? Why does God need a practice run before committing Himself fully? Why should we? When the Lord returns there will be no more sinners alive in the planet...and we will be in heaven enjoying the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Hi brakelite

For so long now, Satan has robbed us of our treasures.  He has done everything to block that truth given to us, and give us a different picture.  God sent his prophets rising early in the morning, declaring all the wonderful things that shall come upon the earth during his "rest", if only we will listen to them, all the words God spoke through them, then we can find out what will be, and separate fact from fiction.

When the Lord returns, he will give those that are truly "wicked" to the sword (war), but it does not end there just yet.  God will leave a remnant of the Jews, and a remnant of the gentiles behind who did not take part in the first resurrection.  Satan will be locked up now for a thousand years as to not "deceive" the "nations" anymore until the thousand years have expired.  This tells us that there is still activity happenning on the earth, and this thousand years is the millennium starting straight after the 2nd Coming.  Jesus will be King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and his saints will rule with him over all the remnants who survived.  Nations will still exist, but their dominions taken away.  This period of the thousand years where Christ will have dominion is called "the first dominion"....the second dominion will obviously be after the 1000 yrs,....after the heavens and the earth is melted.

  Micah 4:8   And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

 

The law will go forth from Jerusalem, (where it stands today) except Jerusalem will split into three parts (Zech 14:4) and the remnants of Israel will be brought into the kingdom there.  This kingdom has boundaries (rev 21:16) and will be holy as the Lord will set up his throne there and rule over Israel.  The remnants of Israel will be taught truth, and in turn will go out and preach to the nations.  Jerusalem will be the "headquarters" of the earth, as all the new laws will come forth out of it.  The nations will see this place with their eyes, and the Lord will restore Jerusalem to it's former glory, like it was in Eden.

Isaiah 51:3   For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.

 

Ezekiel 36:35   And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
 

 

The nations will come up yearly to worship the Lord.  You will see Israel living in peace, full of truth and blessed by the Lord, and this land in the kingdom area will be fruitful.  Flesh will dwell there, and there will be plenty of food, ..all the riches of gold and silver will be collected from the whole earth and brought into the kingdom. 

 Haggai 2:8   The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.

 Zechariah 14:14   And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

All the leading nations have robbed God of his gold and silver, and kept for themselves, now will God take it all back in put inside his kingdom, to also give for bait to Satan when he is released from his prison after 1000 yrs, and leads the Gog and Magog war.

This place holy Jerusalem where Israel will abide will be protected by the Lord, and nothing defiled can enter.  If any nation does not come in yearly to worship then the Lord will send them no rain.  The Lord will rule with a rod of iron, and if any nation does not accept truth and abide by his new laws, then they will be punished, and not allowed to flourish like they do today.  All will know the Lord, hear of his truth, but after time, all will not serve him in their hearts.  They will be not  be permitted to war or kill for a thousand years, but when Satan is let out of his prison, he will obviously lead those nations who have not received rain, and going through famine as an incentive to attack holy Jerusalem because she is so wealthy, full of food, and living in peace (Ezekiel 38:12)
 

So the reason all flesh is not killed at the coming, is because during the thousand years, God will use them all to multiply, so that future generations can be made sons of God also.  After this, ...after the nations have all heard the truth preached to them for 10 generations, they will be tested, so that the goats can be separated from the sheep finally.  The sheep will all be spared and the goats thrown into the lake of fire.  This is to show us, that even though truth and grace is given, men can still choose to be wicked, and take all the mercy the Lord has given us for granted.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Sister

[brakelite]

Thankyou for a well written and lucid response, and reflection of your thoughts. I do not however concur with them, regardless of the fact that you have supported your view with a number of texts, albeit taken from different parts of scripture seemingly to suit your argument. The 1000 years, otherwise known as the "millenium" is spoken of in scripture with reference to the resurrection only. The first at te beginning of the 1000 years, that being for the righteous, the second fr the wicked at the end of the 1000 years. Anything else that goes on in between is man's interpolation. There are other scriptures that would appear to contradict that which you have given, such as ....

Jeremiah 25:29  For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
30 ¶  Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31  A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32  Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33  And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Isaiah 24:1 ¶  Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
2  And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
3  The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word......
.....19  The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20  The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.21  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22  And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23  Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously. (Until the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven at the end of the 1000 years, the old Jerusalem lies in waste, as the rest of the planet does. God reigns from heaven, the true Zion.)

 

 

 

[ghtan]

20 hours ago, brakelite said:

....1 Corinthians 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Dan 2:44 says the rock is a kingdom.