Defense for the Mass-Transit System Rapture

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

Retro - not biblical. Quite an imagination.

Shalom, Rick.

Sure, it's biblical; it's NOT just imagination. All this came from years of study in both the Scriptures and the languages with which those Scriptures were written. Don't just make a snap decision; check it out first.

[Retrobyter]

3 minutes ago, Ezra said:

That's why you should not have duplicated his post. Retro believes that if he can obfuscate with a lengthy post, that will help his case. Sorry Retro, you are way off base.

Shalom, Ezra.

Nah, but thanks for your concern.

[missmuffet]

9 minutes ago, Ezra said:

That's why you should not have duplicated his post. Retro believes that if he can obfuscate with a lengthy post, that will help his case. Sorry Retro, you are way off base.

According to George the above statement is not respectable. Using "you" is not appropriate. It is like getting in someone's face.

Posted by George:

do you see how MANY TIMES you used the word YOU.  This is what I mean by making it PERSONAL.  Debate the issues, not the person.  This is what gets people removed from threads!

How to NOT MAKE IT PERSONAL?

What sin does Christ not forgive, since that is the only thing that could keep a believer out of heaven?

See how that's NOT PERSONAL -- and it's the ISSUE!

Proceed on this line of discussion, and we'll get to the core issues at hand!

[Retrobyter]

7 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

No, like Rick said you have quite an imagination. But your interpretation of scripture is definitely not Biblical. What you want to do with that is your choice.

Shalom, missmuffet.

As I said to Rick, it's not about imagination; it's about PERSPIRATION! And, again, it is PERFECTLY biblical (which doesn't have to be capitalized, btw); all one has to do is read with understanding. Don't listen to what others say ABOUT the Scriptures; listen to what the AUTHORS said IN the Scriptures!

[ENOCH2010]

Roy most here are looking at the rapture through the lens of the pre-trib doctrine. They don't realize there is only 1 second coming / rapture.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, mismuffet.

No, I do NOT believe those who are raptured will go to heaven, and ... it's ENTIRELY biblical! They (and we) will go THROUGH the "heavens"; that is, they (and we) will go THROUGH the skies, with the messengers sent to retrieve them (and us), and they (and we) will all go to Israel to help the Messiah purge His Israel from those who will be trying to do the children of Israel permanent harm.

Think about what Yeshua` Himself said in Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek word: ouranos).
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek word: ouranos) is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek word: ouranos) is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek word: ouranos); but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV

They asked for a "sign from heaven" and He gave them one! "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning!" It's the SAME GREEK WORD in all four occurrences!

And, what about Peter's words during his first public address?

Acts 2:22-36
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ (the Messiah) to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ (the Messiah), that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Messiah).
KJV

David didn't "ascend into the heavens." Instead, he is "dead and buried," and they could go to his sepulchre for proof. And, Peter said this AFTER Yeshua`s resurrection and ascension!

"Heaven" is a misnomer. What most think about when they think of "Heaven" is the description in Revelation 21 and 22. Y'know, the pearly gates, the streets of gold, the throne of God and of the Lamb, etc? But, this is a description of the NEW JERUSALEM, not "Heaven!"

And, the New Jerusalem is our home-to-be when the New Earth and the New Sky are rebuilt out of the ashes of the second earth and sky in which we currently dwell after the global Fire that was promised in prophecy. See, the "third heaven" is not some place out there beyond the starry "second heaven" while the atmosphere around our planet is the "first heaven." Peter tells us a WHOLE DIFFERENT WAY TO LOOK AT IT:

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water (1st "heavens" or skies and 1st earth):
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished (THE FLOOD):
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now (2nd "heavens" or skies and 2nd earth), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (THE FIRE).
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (THE FIRE)
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness (3rd "heavens" or skies and 3rd earth).
KJV

It's not a "third heaven" spatially; it's a "third heaven or sky" CHRONOLOGICALLY! The word "ouranos," often translated "heaven," is a Greek word that means "the sky."

NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):
KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

There are other words that are made from this word, such as "mesouraneema," "ouranios," "ouranothen," "epouranios," but they are extensions of this word:

NT:3321 "Mesouraneema" is the Greek word meaning "the middle of the ouranos." Revelation 19:17 says that this is where the birds fly.

NT:3770 "Ouranios" means of or belonging to the "ouranos." It's just the adjective form of the word.

NT:3771 "Ouranothen" means "from ouranos," which means you have to know what "ouranos" is first.

NT:2032 "Epouranios" is also an adjective form but stems from the combination of "epi," which means "above" or "upon," and "ouranos." It means "of or belonging to" + "above the sky." In 1 Corinthians 15:39-40, Paul said it was where the sun, moon, and stars are. Hebrews 12:22 tells us it is where the New Jerusalem is. This word is talking about "space!"

However, beyond this last word, NONE of these words typically translated as "heaven," "heavens," or "heavenly," could refer strictly to a place beyond the stars!

We were NEVER instructed to anticipate "going to Heaven when we die!" Instead, we were constantly reminded to anticipate our RESURRECTION!

Look, how was Adam created?

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

The MAN, not "his body," was formed from the dust of the ground. God "puffed" into his nostrils the puff of life, and man became a living NEFESH, a living AIR-BREATHER! The Hebrew word "nefesh" comes from the verb "naafash":

OT:5314 naafash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Therefore, the word "nefesh" means...

OT:5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature,  dead (-ly), desire,  [dis-] contented,  fish, ghost,  greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath,  jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves,  slay, soul,  tablet, they, thing, (X she) will,  would have it.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, the "soul" (Hebrew: nefesh, and therefore, Greek: psuchee) is an "air-breather." The "spirit" (Hebrew: ruwach, and therefore, Greek: pneuma) is the "wind" or a "forceful breath," and we ARE a body; we don't HAVE a body. So, when a person dies, he or she "gives up the ghost" or "breathes his or her last (breath)," and ceases to be an "air-breather." In order for someone to have "everlasting life," God must intervene for that person and RESURRECT him or her, putting the "breath" (the "spirit") back into that person, and in the process make him or her both incorruptible and immortal. THEN AND ONLY THEN will they have "everlasting life."

Now, if you haven't been reading along with other threads in which I've written, then I know that this is a lot to take in one sitting. It may take weeks, months, or even YEARS before you can accept all this. (ADONAI knows it took years for me to get it.)

 

Seriously folks, you can make this stuff up!

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Rick.

Sure, it's biblical; it's NOT just imagination. All this came from years of study in both the Scriptures and the languages with which those Scriptures were written. Don't just make a snap decision; check it out first.

It's amazing that GOD would reveal this to you after 2,000 years. And only to you! You must be pretty special.

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, RobertS said:

1) What you have quoted does not support Jesus transporting the saints in the Rapture to the Holy land.

No, you're right. It's from other prophecies I get that information. HOWEVER, neither does it say that we are "going to heaven" after the Rapture! It simply says, "from then on we will be with the Lord [Yeshua`]." The thing is this: WHY does the Lord return? What is His purpose in the Return? Where will He go? What will He do? Much of this we must get from the Tanakh (the OT) because it is from THERE that the writers of the NT received what they knew about the End Times. For instance,

Zechariah 12:2-10
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
KJV

Zechariah 14:1-5
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
KJV

Psalm 68:1-6
1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.
4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him.
5 A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.
6 God setteth the solitary in families: he bringeth out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.
KJV

Isaiah 25:9-12
9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save (deliver) us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation (rescue).
10 For in this mountain shall the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill.
11 And he shall spread forth his hands in the midst of them, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim: and he shall bring down their pride together with the spoils of their hands.
12 And the fortress of the high fort of thy walls shall he bring down, lay low, and bring to the ground, even to the dust.
KJV

Isaiah 49:13-26
13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
14 But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my LORD hath forgotten me.
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.
17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.
18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.
21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
22 Thus saith the LORD God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
24 Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?
25 But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour (Deliverer) and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
KJV

And, there are MANY, MANY more such prophecies! It shall be God's PASSION to rescue His children! And, it shall be the Messiah's PASSION to rescue His mishpachah, His family! He will be in such a hurry that He will wonder why He's fighting alone!

15 hours ago, RobertS said:

2) Where do you think Jesus is going to be during the Tribulation? Scripture clearly shows Him IN HEAVEN during the Tribulation:

" After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance. Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads." (Revelation 4:1-4, NASB, emphasis mine)

Um, sorry, but Revelation 4:1 is NOT a rapture passage. It is a direct invitation to Yochanan (John), not to all. This was a common error in interpretation back in the 1900's, but we shouldn't make the same mistake. This is one reason why it is a bad idea to forget the KJV. Here's the KJV:

Revelation 4:1
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
KJV

Thee's and thou's are singular; ye's and you's are plural. If you'd check in the Greek, you will also find that the verbs are in 2nd person singular, not plural.

14 hours ago, RobertS said:

This establishes that God's throne is in Heaven. Next, we see Jesus in Heaven, to take the scroll and break the seals:

"And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." (Revelation 5:6-8, NASB, emphasis mine)

Does it indeed? Or, was Yochanan looking through the "heaven" ("the sky") and seeing where the throne of God truly was?

Revelation 21:22-22:5
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city (New Jerusalem) had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

14 hours ago, RobertS said:

Revelation 7 shows once again the Lamb and the throne:

" After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying,
      “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”  (Revelation 7:9-12, NASB, emphasis mine)

Ditto.

14 hours ago, RobertS said:

And Rev. 19 has this to say:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Revelation 19:11-16, NASB, emphasis mine)

So Jesus does indeed return to Heaven; He doesn't remain here on earth, and we don't go somewhere else on Earth during the Tribulation.

Sorry, but these are ALL occurrences of the Greek word "ouranos." So, one should be reading,

"And I saw the sky opened, and behold a white horse, ..." and
"And the armies which are in the sky, clothed in fine linen, ..."

All this tells me is that He attacks from the SKY! Indeed, that's where we meet Him, right? "In the air?"

14 hours ago, RobertS said:

Another point: "For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone forth, so that we have no need to say anything. For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:8-10, NASB, emphasis mine)

Not "through", not "during", but "from the wrath to come". We are not "protected through it", but delivered from it.

WHOSE "wrath?" God's? OR, could it be ...

Proverbs 16:14
14 The wrath of a king is as messengers of death: but a wise man will pacify it.
KJV

Proverbs 27:3-4
3 A stone is heavy, and the sand weighty; but a fool's wrath is heavier than them both.
4 Wrath is cruel, and anger is outrageous; but who is able to stand before envy?
KJV

Revelation 11:18
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV

Revelation 12:12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV

Wasn't this what Yeshua` said?

Luke 21:22-24
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
KJV

Yes, there is deliverance from wrath, but that doesn't require our REMOVAL.

Also, note that we are "to wait for His Son from heaven (Greek: ouranos = the sky)." Wasn't that what the disciples were told on the mount when Yeshua` ascended into the sky?

Acts 1:10-11
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (the sky) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (the sky).
KJV

14 hours ago, RobertS said:

There is also the issue of the Restrainer: It has to be the Holy Spirit, as it takes a person of superior power to restrain an individual such as Satan. Even Michael the Archangel would not argue with Satan when contending with the body of Moses, but said "The Lord rebuke you" (Jude 1:9 to be exact). And scripture is clear that A) He would never leave us nor forsake us, and B) the Restrainer would be removed before the unveiling of the Man of Lawlessness (Antichrist). So, if the Lord has promised to never leave us (and the Holy Spirit is God), and the only one who can be the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit (who must be "taken out of the way" before the AC can show up), then either 1): God breaks His promise; or 2) We're not here for the Tribulation.

Not if we're already IN the tribulation as it was described to the disciples by Yeshua` within the Olivet Discourse. It started in the first century A.D., and it will continue until the signs in the sun, moon, and stars are visible.

14 hours ago, RobertS said:

Now, a question for folks who think we will be here for the Tribulation....

Is the Blood of Christ enough, or do you think that salvation is somehow lacking without our "adding to it"?

If that is the case: then why are the saints who have gone before us not resurrected to suffer in the Tribulation as well, seeing as there was no time like it before, nor would there be again? Do we think the suffering in their lives was worse than what those in the tribulation would endure?

Something to think on...

Actually, as I said, we're IN the tribulation. Have been for nearly 2000 years. Therefore, this point is moot.

I would like to thank you, though, for all your good thoughts. I have fun answering them.

[Retrobyter]

37 minutes ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Roy most here are looking at the rapture through the lens of the pre-trib doctrine. They don't realize there is only 1 second coming / rapture.

Shalom, ENOCH2010.

Yeah, I know it, but I used to be there, too. I could rattle off the whole rhetoric of the pre-trib doctrine, having heard it since I was born ... LITERALLY! My father was (and still is) a staunch pre-trib preacher, and my mother gave birth to me early on a Monday morning, and according to my dad, it was so I and my mother could be in church on the very next Sunday! And, I was always in church every Sunday morning, both Sunday School and church, Sunday evening, and Wednesday evening until the age of 13 when I had the mumps! 

He would often have other preachers, missionaries, and evangelists in to speak on the timeline of the End Times. I would hear all sorts of sermons on the Rapture and on the Second Coming and on the "Seven years of Tribulation" with its 3.5 years of the "Great Tribulation." LOTS of charts! 

When I was growing up, my dad would host several young fellows who were going off to Bible college on New Year's Eve, and they were given the chance to preach their own sermons while we were "seeing the old year out." The End Times and prophecy were frequent topics! I was even included in that as I was approaching college age. Somewhere in all my file cabinets, I'm sure I've got an outline or two on some of the sermons I preached. (Probably many more than two!)

So, if I can show them how all the charts and all the sermons and all the teachings may be just so much man's philosophies, then perhaps the Lord can redirect their thinking, too.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Rick_Parker said:

It's amazing that GOD would reveal this to you after 2,000 years. And only to you! You must be pretty special.

Shalom, Rick.

Well, I would HOPE that it wasn't only to me! I can't imagine that I'm the only one who's had these thoughts, at least some of them. I'm just one of the few that are getting too old to care what people think of me for saying them out loud ... or in print. LOL!

No, I believe that much of this was known until about the fifth century A.D. We've been living in a HUGE paradigm shift because our definitions for certain key terms have changed with our languages. Where words like "lord" don't mean just "sir" or "master" anymore. "Church" doesn't mean just a simple town meeting anymore. "Christ" doesn't REALLY mean "Messiah" anymore (even though people have a head knowledge that they're the same thing). The "heavens" don't mean the "skies" anymore (and yet, we have PLENTY of old movies that still use the term "heavens" that way). God doesn't have to be "feared" anymore because He's a "God of love," who would NEVER send anyone to "a lake of fire," let alone leave them there for all eternity! 

God just helps me to remember what I've already learned so I can use it for the next learning session. He's worked in my life to build one truth upon another until I'm no longer even close to the way I used to be, but that's okay! I'm learning, He's teaching, and wherever He chooses to direct me is good.