Is the Falling Away a false teaching ?

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

This is another warning sign for me, when someone thinks they have had God, or the Holy Spirit "speak" to them, or when they think the "truth" has been revealed by the Holy Spirit or God to them.

I saw this sign in a Church:
Don't believe everything you think.

That is good, solid advice, and I will add: never ever delude yourself that you're so special that God speaks the truth to you personally, especially when it is at odds with Scripture or what He did tell the Prophets, or in the case of the Apostles and Paul, what He told them personally.

Oh brother LOLOLOLOL....You do not even understand the Holy Spirit.  No wonder you are not in the know. You are missing the very gift you need. I understand now.

[Annika]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Oh brother LOLOLOLOL....You do not even understand the Holy Spirit.  No wonder you are not in the know. You are missing the very gift you need. I understand now.

Granted, but he's half right.  Sometimes we will something to be from the Holy Spirit when it is very clearly at odds with everything we know, for example "Should I toss my Bible in the fire?" and the answer is "yes".  In such cases we must be critical of others who have arrived at such strange conclusions, but also of ourselves.  Remember that sometimes our own thoughts can be inspired by Satan or by our own mental health problems (for example, I acknowledge that my OCD causes me to have a lot of compulsive bad thoughts which I certainly don't want to have) and not by the Holy Spirit -- yet by our very natures, we can sometimes have difficulties discerning the two.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Oh brother LOLOLOLOL....You do not even understand the Holy Spirit.  No wonder you are not in the know. You are missing the very gift you need. I understand now.

<<Twilight TV show theme music playing in the background>>

Folk: he "knows it" in his "knower"...

Don't believe everything you think.

I'm sorry RM: unfortunately, eschatology is the playground for too many kooks and crackpots and everyone has their pet theory which is perfectly "clear" and they know it's true because the Holy Spirit told them.  And that is why I am loathe to tell the intelligent people with whom I mingle, that I study eschatology. 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The "falling away" apostesia, the departure from the rule, or the law, i.e., rebellion: is not a false teaching.  It is taught in the Bible.  One place it can be found is in one of Paul's earliest Epistle, the second one he ever wrote: 2nd Thessalonians.  Yes, Paul was on fire for eschatology when he began to teach.  That didn't work out so well for him because as he found, his pupils were easily confused.  If you read his letters in their chronological order, as he wrote them, he gradually shifts away from the complex "meat" of the end-times prophecies to the simple "milk" of the Gospel message.  One of his last letters skips eschatology altogether: to him to live is Christ and die gain.  No more "resurrection of the dead", "those who remain and are still alive"'; just this life - and then Heaven.

I'm going to use the NIV because they translate the Greek in the simplest manner for the easiest reading.

2nd Th 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter —asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. ~ NIV 2010

Paul starts off with two events:

1. The Coming of our Lord 
2. AND our being gathered to Him.

These are not only linked by the conjunction 'and' in the Greek, they follow logically as 1-2 in sequence.  First Jesus comes, and then we are gathered to Him.

The day this happens is the Day of Christ, literally in the Greek, but since Jesus is not only Christ but Lord, it is synonymous with the Day of the Lord, which the NIV uses here.  I have no problem with their decision to translate the Greek in this manner because in a meaning-for-meaning translation: it gets the point across.

UNTIL.  This is not the best word-for-word translation, but it is the best meaning-for-meaning translation.

The Day of the Lord will not happen UNTIL two other things happen:

1. The rebellion occurs
2. AND the man of sin is revealed.

Because Paul does not go in a strict order, some people will miss the "except / until" conjunction which reverses the sequence.  Ignoring, or missing it altogether, folk will then take the 'removal from the midst' which up to that point impedes the Son of Perdition from being revealed - as the "departure" of the Church.  Let's be real: we has no real power over this demonic power and principality.  Our only power lies in God, and He allows this to happen, perhaps to show us, how much we need Him.  Jesus is the only one who can defeat the anti-Christ.

Still others, like LaHaye and Ice, will misconstrue the Greek word: apostesia spinning it around on other early English versions to mean a physical departure, which the word does not mean in the Greek.  Furthermore, such a rendering should be rejected because the physical departure of the Church, the Rapture, cannot happen -according to Paul- until the apostesia happens.  To accept LaHaye and Ice at this critical verse, presents an illogical pretzel: the Rapture cannot happen until the Rapture happens.  

So with a sober reading of what Paul wrote, we can order the basic sequence of the first three verses in this manner:

1. The rebellion occurs
2. The man of sin is revealed
3. The Coming of our Lord
4. Our being gathered to Him.

The teaching is true because we find it here and elsewhere.  It has been happening before, and it is happening now, and it will increase in the one 'seven' - which has not yet begun.  Hold onto your hats, it's going to get bumpy.

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, Annika said:

Granted, but he's half right.  Sometimes we will something to be from the Holy Spirit when it is very clearly at odds with everything we know, for example "Should I toss my Bible in the fire?" and the answer is "yes".  In such cases we must be critical of others who have arrived at such strange conclusions, but also of ourselves.  Remember that sometimes our own thoughts can be inspired by Satan or by our own mental health problems (for example, I acknowledge that my OCD causes me to have a lot of compulsive bad thoughts which I certainly don't want to have) and not by the Holy Spirit -- yet by our very natures, we can sometimes have difficulties discerning the two.

This is true, especially to young Christians, but if you read a post in our discussion from 4-7 posts back, I explained how I always wait upon the Lord/Holy Spirit for guidance, in other words if I read 20 books about who Babylon the Great, Mystery Babylon or the Great Harlot is, I am not going to accept anything as truth, until the Holy Spirit and the unction gives me conviction in said belief. I studied Babylon for 30 years and never claimed to have insight, some said it was America, USA, Rome, NYC, Mecca, etc. etc. But I will not buy in totally on anything until the Holy Spirit gives me an answer, or a CONFIRMATION. And you can tell the difference in the voices, sometimes Satan does try to mislead us, but we should always know the voice of the Holy Spirit. You see, Satan was giving me all of those BABYLON is Rome, Babylon it the USA, Babylon is New York City etc. etc. ideas. I will not accept any MAYBES as truths until I hear from the Holy Spirit. 

Seems more like he was implying that people who say they hear the voice of the Holy Spirit are cra cra. 

[Guest Robert]

On 10/9/2016 at 11:11 PM, douggg said:

The person will be from the Romans, the end times version of the Roman Empire, the EU.    But that doesn't mean he is a gentile.    There are Jews in nearly every nation of the world.

The person in Revelation 13, that last 42 months - is after he has gone through his Antichrist stage - where he becomes the King of Israel, betrays them, and is no longer their king.      In Revelation 13, he is the beast, and the EU, his kingdom is his affiliation, not Israel at that time, and he persecutes the Jews, for rejecting him and his claim of being God or having attained God-hood.

 

Nothing in Scripture says he is accepted by Israel as their king, nor does Scripture ever indicate he becomes king of Israel.

On 10/9/2016 at 11:03 PM, douggg said:

Hi Robert, we are not going to have a replay of the Ptolomey's and the Seleucids.    It happened, it is over.

 The little horn in Daniel 8 is end times, and does not wax strong from the north - but from the north and west.      On the map that would be Greece.     Parts of Turkey are north and west as well, but the nation of Turkey as a whole is north of Israel.

Greece is the eastern most frontier of the EU.    I am not saying that the little horn is from Greece - only that Greece is where he will stage his army prior to the Gog/Magog invasion - he attempts to deter.

In the end times passages in Daniel 11, it doesn't say the person is the King of the North (or king of the West for that matter).    The person is referred as "he" and "him" in Daniel 11:36-45.      That he is the King of West has to be ascertained from other bible verses....  and from the military reality of who can wage such conflicts against the other three quadrants of the world.

 

And nothing in Scripture says he stages his army in Greece itself. I'm sorry, but to me, it looks like you're trying to "pin the tail on the AC", and folks throughout the centuries have tried that, with one dismal failure after another. And there really is no reason to try to discern the AC's identity: we're not going to be here for the AC's rise or takeover. Not to mention in the unlikely event the church did go through the Trib, we should know from Scripture not to follow any leader that would proclaim himself as "god". No one's going to walk up to him, poke him in the nose and say "I got your number, buddy!"

Edited October 12, 2016 by RobertS

[douggg]

16 minutes ago, RobertS said:

Nothing in Scripture says he is accepted by Israel as their king, nor does Scripture ever indicate he becomes king of Israel.

And nothing in Scripture says he stages his army in Greece itself. I'm sorry, but to me, it looks like you're trying to "pin the tail on the AC", and folks throughout the centuries have tried that, with one dismal failure after another. And there really is no reason to try to discern the AC's identity: we're not going to be here for the AC's rise or takeover.

Robert, the person waxes strong from one of the territories of the break up kingdoms.     He also comes from the people who destroyed the temple and city.

And his kingdom is the fourth empire.     In modern times, that kingdom is the EU.    

In Daniel 8:23 in the latter time of that kingdom (the EU in it's final stage) when the transgressors have come to a full - the ten kings, leaders are in place, a king of fierce countenance "stands up".     Stands up is an saying for prepares to do battle.     Animals right before they clash, will often times stand on their hind legs.

In Ezekiel 39, there are 7 years following Gog/Magog which are the 7 years, the 70th week, which begins when the Jews think the messiah has arrived, and he confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant.    At the end of the 7 years is the battle of Armageddon, which is the feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

All of that information has to be assembled to know that the little horn will stage his army in Greece as a deterrent to Gog/Magog.    One of the things that the Jews believe is that the messiah fights the battles of God in defending Israel.     The little horn's intentions to deter Gog/Magog militarily will make them think that he is their long awaited messiah following Gog/Magog.

I can't pin the tail on anyone right now because the ten king, leader, form of government is not in place for the EU.    The singular leader over them will be the little horn.

[Guest Robert]

2 minutes ago, douggg said:

Robert, the person waxes strong from one of the territories of the break up kingdoms.     He also comes from the people who destroyed the temple and city.

And his kingdom is the fourth empire.     In modern times, that kingdom is the EU.    

In Daniel 8:23 in the latter time of that kingdom (the EU in it's final stage) when the transgressors have come to a full - the ten kings, leaders are in place, a king of fierce countenance "stands up".     Stands up is an saying for prepares to do battle.     Animals right before they clash, will often times stand on their hind legs.

In Ezekiel 39, there are 7 years following Gog/Magog which are the 7 years, the 70th week, which begins when the Jews think the messiah has arrived, and he confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant.    At the end of the 7 years is the battle of Armageddon, which is the feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

All of that information has to be assembled to know that the little horn will stage his army in Greece as a deterrent to Gog/Magog.    One of the things that the Jews believe is that the messiah fights the battles of God in defending Israel.     The little horn's intentions to deter Gog/Magog militarily will make them think that he is their long awaited messiah following Gog/Magog.

I can't pin the tail on anyone right now because the ten king, leader, form of government is not in place for the EU.    The singular leader over them will be the little horn.

Sorry, Scripture doesn't say he stages his army in Greece. You're throwing together single verses here, and they do not pinpoint Greece as where he is going to amass his army.

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As to the OP: what we are seeing today is apostasy. Among those professing to be Christians we find that a disturbing amount are Scripturally illiterate, believe that God accepts more than one way to Himself, believe that Sola Scriptura is "wrong", that sex outside of marriage is acceptable and so on.

We can say what we like and claim we cannot "know the hearts of people" and so on. But there comes a point where we really need to take the blinders  off and face the truth around us: whether those who are turning away from the Church were never true Christians or not is not the point. People are leaving the Church and deviating from Scripture and what has been taught from it. We are in the season, and the time is around the corner.

And I stand on that.

-RobertS out.

[n2thelight]

Matthew 24:21, 22 – Jesus said that a terrible time of trouble would come upon the world just before His return and that it would be more intense than any other in the history of this world. “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved.”

 

John 16:33 – Jesus added, “In the world YOU shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

 

Acts 14:22 – Paul told Christians, “We through much tribulation must enter the kingdom of God.”

 

Romans 5:3 – True Christians are to “glory in tribulations” because “tribulation works patience” and develops Christian character.

 

2 Thessalonians 1:4 – Paul wrote of the many “persecutions and tribulations” which “the churches of God” were enduring in the first century (Christians were thrown to the lions and burned at the stake).

 

Revelation 1:9 – John was our “companion in tribulation.”

 

Revelation 2:10 – Again to His church, Jesus said, “YOU shall have tribulation…”

 

Revelation 7:14 – God’s end time people “came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” They did not escape it, but endured through it, being purified.

 

Daniel 12:1 – “At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.”

 

The good news is that God’s children will survive the final tribulation. Jesus assures His faithful children,

“Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the world” (Matthew 28:20). And if Jesus is with His children who can stand against them? (Romans 8:31).

 

 

[n2thelight]

 

Can someone please tell me what could be worse than the below

http://listverse.com/2013/09/24/10-horrifying-tortures-of-early-christians/

 

How do you'll(rapturist)get to escape when early Christians did'nt ?