Is the Falling Away a false teaching ?

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

Theres no doubt Paul would of previously discussed these matters with them but the assumption still remains that apostasia means rapture, the use of the Article "the" doesnt prove the assumption.

In the Classical Greek Liddell and Scott lexicon lists  apostasia as “defection, revolt”; as the primary meaning

and “departure, disappearance” as a secondary meaning.

In the Patristic Greek the standard Greek lexicon for Patristic Greek Lampe has apostasia as “revolt, defection” as the primary meaning

and gives only one example of a departure in a secondary meaning but in the sense of a political and religious departure and not a physical departure

You will not find a single instance from the 2nd century BC to the 1st century A.D where this word apostasia refers to a physical departure.

 

 

The rebellion and the revealing of the man of lawlessness are not two disconnected or unrelated events - so one can hardly call this a superficial examination since this must be seen as a two step unifying event 

The First Seven English Translations had Departure or Departing. The Vulgate had the meaning as Departing. The Article was not "the"per se in this case, I understand it to be "The Gathering unto Jesus Christ" as per Defection, we can be seen to defect from the earth. But the fact is STRONG'S sees this word as coming from a word that has meaning of Departure amongst a few other things means  you have to have a contextual moment, and figure out what fits.

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

The Three instances where this is used as a Departure from the Faith are Below. 

King James Bible
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And the seed on the rock are those who, when they hear, welcome the word with joy. Having no root, these believe for a while and depart in a time of testing.

 

(KJV) 1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

(KJV) Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

 

Below is the instances where this means Departing from something:

(KJV) 2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

(KJV) 1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

(KJV) Luke 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

(KJV) 2 Corinthians 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

(KJV) Acts 12:10 When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed from him.

(KJV) Luke 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

 

This was written for discussion mind you. For I understand even if this means a revolt from the Faith, that this verse in no wise prevents the Rapture from happening in the Twinkling of an eye, before the Anti-Christ comes forth. It would then just happen in this manner. Men depart from the Faith like is happening now in many Churches with their acceptance of worldly son and partaking in such. (The Rapture comes) The Man of sin is Revealed after the Departure from the Faith. 

 

I personally think that way of thinking is off kilter, the subject of 2 Thessalonians is the Gathering together unto the Lord before the Day of the Lord comes. Thus we are going to Depart, Leave, defect from this Earth and go to Heaven just like Revelation 19 says, to Marry the Lamb.

We see many cases above where this means Departing from a particular thing, not from a Faith.

 

God Bless.

 

 

 

 

[Revelation Man]

On 9/17/2016 at 11:59 AM, inchrist said:

Ok, but now you taking the noun form apostasia, to a verb form which is aphistemi (used 14 times in NT) to mean the same thing.

Heres the problem with that approach

If we take the verb aphistemi to another derivative cognate noun Apostasion which only means “divorce or legal act of separation.”

 

Or

 

Apostater another cognate noun which means “one who has power to dissolve an assembly” or “to decide a question.”

None of these derivative nouns contain the meaning of a physical departure

Context is the only viable option to determine the meaning of the noun and not by a cognate verb  aphistemi and Paul determined that context for us in 2 Th2:1 and 2Th2:2.... Paul is making a contrast of what precedes and what follow

The “gathering” (rapture) and parousia/day of the Lord is what follows “For that day will not come unless”

That day is referring to the day of the lord and our gathering.

 

That was the whole point of the OP, the original did not need a verb, because there was a definite article already mentioned and understood between the two-parties. It was in the First verse....and by our gathering together unto him. 

Thereby the Departure is already known as to what it pertains to.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Revelation Man

[Last Daze]

On 9/17/2016 at 9:24 AM, Revelation Man said:

Again, as I have stated in depth, and will do so again in brief. That is a "saying" by people and a ready made quote that makes no sense in itself.

 

The Rapture is not after the Seven Year Tribulation, but before, thus it seems you confuse the Two. Why would there be two raptures?  If the Rapture happens before the Anti-Christ appears as we say, which is true, then the Second Coming is not the Rapture per se, so the quote sounds nothing like you imply, but you still think the Rapture is at the Second Coming so you see two Raptures in your thinking, even though that's not the case.

 

^{2 Thess. 2:3} Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day(Day of the Lord) shall not come, except there come a falling away(DEPARTURE/RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; {{ Now please show me in that verse where this second rapture is, because I fail to see it. The Second Coming is not a Rapture, but it is not in this verse anyway. The Rapture happens, the Anti-Christ comes on the scene. Then Seven years later we the Church (Revelation 19) comes back with Jesus immediately after the Tribulation, which we do not partake in.}}

Jesus also speaks of the apostasy that Paul is referring to.  Because of the name of Jesus the following happens:

• Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.  At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.  Matthew 24:9-10

Where again do the innumerable "tribulation saints" come from if the church is raptured and then many fall away?  There is no "great revival" only deception and apostasy.  There's a reason we're exhorted to endure.

The tap-dancing needs to cease.

[PatrolMan]

No. Just look around you. Have a nice one.

[missmuffet]

Question: "Will there be a great apostasy / falling away during the end times?"

Answer: The Bible indicates that there will be a great apostasy during the end times. The “great apostasy” is mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The KJV calls it the “falling away,” while the NIV and ESV call it “the rebellion.” And that’s what an apostasy is: a rebellion, an abandonment of the truth. The end times will include a wholesale rejection of God’s revelation, a further “falling away” of an already fallen world.

The occasion of Paul’s writing to the Thessalonians was to correct some of the errors concerning the end times that the believers had heard from false teachers. Among the falsehoods was that “the day of the Lord has already come” (2 Thessalonians 2:2). The Christians in Thessalonica were afraid that Jesus had already come, they had missed the rapture, and they were now in the tribulation. Paul had already explained the rapture to them in his first letter (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17). Paul writes his second letter to assure them that, contrary to what they had heard, and despite the persecution they were enduring, the “day of Christ” had not yet come.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Paul makes it clear that the day of the Lord, a time of worldwide judgment (Isaiah 13:6; Obadiah 1:15), will not transpire until two things happen. First, the falling away, or great apostasy, must occur. Second, the “man of lawlessness” must be revealed, he who is called the “son of perdition,” also known as the Antichrist. Once this person makes himself known, the end times will indeed have come. Numerous speculations about the identity of the man of sin, beginning in the first century, have included Caligula, Caius Caesar, Mohammed, Napoleon, and any number of Roman popes. None of them were the Antichrist.

The man of lawlessness, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:4, is the one “will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” Clearly, this has not yet happened; no one since Paul’s time has set himself up as God in the Jewish temple. Two thousand years have passed since the epistle was written, and the “day of the Lord” has not yet come. Paul assures us that it will not come until the falling away comes first.

The Greek word translated “rebellion” or “falling away” in verse 3 is apostasia, from which we get the English word apostasy. It refers to a general defection from the true God, the Bible, and the Christian faith. Every age has its defectors, but the falling away at the end times will be complete and worldwide. The whole planet will be in rebellion against God and His Christ. Every coup requires a leader, and into this global apostasy will step the Antichrist. We believe this takes place after the church has been raptured from the earth.

Jesus warned the disciples concerning the final days in Matthew 24:10–12: “At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.” These are the characteristics of the great apostasy of the end times.

http://www.gotquestions.org/great-apostasy.html

[Revelation Man]

On 9/19/2016 at 8:01 AM, Last Daze said:

Jesus also speaks of the apostasy that Paul is referring to.  Because of the name of Jesus the following happens:

• Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.  At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.  Matthew 24:9-10

Where again do the innumerable "tribulation saints" come from if the church is raptured and then many fall away?  There is no "great revival" only deception and apostasy.  There's a reason we're exhorted to endure.

The tap-dancing needs to cease.

Well in the KJV Jesus does not say "falling away" so you are picking and choosing bibles to get a result. I only use two, the KJV and Holmon (HCSB) for the mot part....Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

The Great Tribulation doesn't start until after the Rapture.  The final week of Daniels Decree starts at the Rapture. apostisia can mean a departure of the Faith, but in this instance in Thessalonians, it means a Departure of the Church, BEFORE the Day of the Lord, the original subject matter in verse one is the RAPTURE or Gathering together unto Jesus Christ.  

Many can fall away, and many can turn from evil to God. I do not think either is the case, I think the "Falling Away" here is the Church Departing, as the Rapture is the subject of this discussion. It is a Departure of the Church (Gathering unto Christ Jesus).  

Those Jesus says must endure, come before the Great Tribulation and before the Rapture. Your timing on Matthew 24 seems off a bit. The Gospel isnt preached unto all the world until Matthew 24:14, anything before this can not be end time Tribulation. Jesus was speaking of the tribulation all Christians go through, and we must endure until the end or RUN THAT RACE. 

I am just amazed that people really believe the Church is going through the Tribulation.

[Revelation Man]

35 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Question: "Will there be a great apostasy / falling away during the end times?"

Answer: The Bible indicates that there will be a great apostasy during the end times. The “great apostasy” is mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The KJV calls it the “falling away,” while the NIV and ESV call it “the rebellion.” And that’s what an apostasy is: a rebellion, an abandonment of the truth. The end times will include a wholesale rejection of God’s revelation, a further “falling away” of an already fallen world.

The occasion of Paul’s writing to the Thessalonians was to correct some of the errors concerning the end times that the believers had heard from false teachers. Among the falsehoods was that “the day of the Lord has already come” (2 Thessalonians 2:2). The Christians in Thessalonica were afraid that Jesus had already come, they had missed the rapture, and they were now in the tribulation. Paul had already explained the rapture to them in his first letter (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17). Paul writes his second letter to assure them that, contrary to what they had heard, and despite the persecution they were enduring, the “day of Christ” had not yet come.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Paul makes it clear that the day of the Lord, a time of worldwide judgment (Isaiah 13:6; Obadiah 1:15), will not transpire until two things happen. First, the falling away, or great apostasy, must occur. Second, the “man of lawlessness” must be revealed, he who is called the “son of perdition,” also known as the Antichrist. Once this person makes himself known, the end times will indeed have come. Numerous speculations about the identity of the man of sin, beginning in the first century, have included Caligula, Caius Caesar, Mohammed, Napoleon, and any number of Roman popes. None of them were the Antichrist.

The man of lawlessness, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:4, is the one “will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” Clearly, this has not yet happened; no one since Paul’s time has set himself up as God in the Jewish temple. Two thousand years have passed since the epistle was written, and the “day of the Lord” has not yet come. Paul assures us that it will not come until the falling away comes first.

The Greek word translated “rebellion” or “falling away” in verse 3 is apostasia, from which we get the English word apostasy. It refers to a general defection from the true God, the Bible, and the Christian faith. Every age has its defectors, but the falling away at the end times will be complete and worldwide. The whole planet will be in rebellion against God and His Christ. Every coup requires a leader, and into this global apostasy will step the Antichrist. We believe this takes place after the church has been raptured from the earth.

Jesus warned the disciples concerning the final days in Matthew 24:10–12: “At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.” These are the characteristics of the great apostasy of the end times.

http://www.gotquestions.org/great-apostasy.html

I agree the culture gets worse, Peter says so as does Paul in Romans chapter one. But in this instance, if you analyze the OP, I think the case here is that Paul is speaking of the Church Departing. The First Seven English Translations had Departing or Departed, and the Latin Vulgate bible from 400-1400 had Departing. So the KJV comes along in 1611 and all of the sudden we are supposed to forget 1400 years of understanding just because they said is was an apostasy, BUT WHY ? Also why did they change it ? Well the Protestants and Catholics didn't get along back then, the guy I quoted seems to think the only answer is,  they were taking a shot at the Catholics being in "Apostasy". 

 

If the "Falling Away" was well known as the Departing for 1400-1500 years, and the subject in verse one was the Gathering together unto Christ or the Rapture, why change the meaning in 1611 ? 

[Last Daze]

12 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I am just amazed that people really believe the Church is going through the Tribulation.

•  And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you."  Matthew 24:4

Good advice.

 

[missmuffet]

No, I do not believe that the Church is going through the seven year tribulation at this time. The rapture of the Church has not occurred as yet. I believe that their will be a falling away before the rapture of the Church.

[Revelation Man]

21 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

No, I do not believe that the Church is going through the seven year tribulation at this time. The rapture of the Church has not occurred as yet. I believe that their will be a falling away before the rapture of the Church.

That was to others, I know you understand the Rapture in scriptures. But the fact remains, the KJV was the first translation to call it a falling away. And the Subject is the Rapture, no where is the condition of the Church even mentioned before this sentence. I agree there will be an EVIL that comes upon the earth, I do not see the true church as suffering such, but there will be many that claim to be of Christ who do not live the faith. We are just speaking about what this particular verse means. Seeing as how it meant Departing for 1400 years, I am going to stick with that, especially since the Church Departing from the Faith would have no effect on the Anti-Christ showing up, but the Church departing the earth would leave the door wide open unto him.  And the Subject is the Rapture in the very first verse. 

 

God Bless