Is the Falling Away a false teaching ?

[Salty]

On 9/15/2016 at 9:50 PM, Revelation Man said:

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

 

Greek apostasia is where our English word apostasy comes from. There's no argument over the meaning of the word, so all debates on that point are moot and pointless.

Titus 1:16
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
KJV

I feel I know where such false ideas originate that no believer on The Father and The Son can become reprobates, but that's not what Scripture shows. So men's thinking that a believer cannot turn away from Christ and become a reprobate is a moot argument also.

 

The biggest danger of men's doctrines of the Pre-trib Rapture theory is how they are not preparing their congregations for the greatest deception event that has ever been in history, soon to come upon this earth when the pseudo-Christ shows up in Jerusalem for the end.

In Matt.24:23-26, our Lord Jesus warned that the pseudo-Christ (KJV "false Christs" but is actually the Greek word 'pseudochristos') would, if possible, deceive His very elect servants because of the great signs and wonders he will work. Our Lord also warned some will come up to us and say, "Christ is here, or there" and Jesus said do not believe it!

Think about the power level of deception our Lord Jesus described there. For the coming pseudo-Christ to work wonders and miracles so powerful in deception that it would almost deceive even Christ's own very elect, then how could that working affect those weak in the Faith? That's the apostasy idea Paul was talking about in 2 Thess.2. And it will... be a GREAT APOSTASY of those weak in the Faith falling away to think that coming pseudo-Christ will be God.

The pre-trib doctors don't want you to even think ... about such a thing. Instead, they want you to think Jesus is not going to allow us to go through that. But that does not... even make sense, because Jesus was warning His Church about that coming pseudo-Christ!!! Thus it is very easy to know the pre-trib rapture doctors are simply lying, and continuing a tradition begun by liars. Since they keep changing that doctrine over time, I look for them to tell their congregations when the pseudo-Christ shows up, to go flee to him, that that is Jesus.

 

 

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Hippy said:

None of God's created men and beasts can fall away because they were created to live forever. However, the visible flesh and world that it appears to walk around in will be destroyed soon to end the first age. 

Can you elaborate on this train of thought please.  It sounds like you are saying that people cannot fall away from the faith or truth.  Why add beasts into the mix of falling away.  What do they have to do with following the truth in scripture?

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Salty said:

Greek apostasia is where our English word apostasy comes from. There's no argument over the meaning of the word, so all debates on that point are moot and pointless.

 

Meanings of words constantly change, they do not always stay constant, as you seem to be assuming. 50-75 years ago "Gay" meant happy, now most people associate it with being a homosexual. apostasy comes from the Greek word apostisia, have you ever tracked down where the word came from ? I have in full. 

Apostisia comes fro m the Greek word Aphistemi which was derived from two Greek words Apo (away) and Histemi (stand)  properly, departure apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing." 

Why to you assume this has to be a "standing" of faith ? Can being on the earth, and Leaving/Departing for Heaven not be a changing of your standing ? Of course it can, if one departs earth for Heaven, NO DOUBT or standing has changed. We went from a corruptible body to an incorruptible body in a Twinkling of an eye !! 

Now lets look at how Aphistemi is used in the New Testament.....NAS Word Usage - Total: 14 abstain 1, depart 1, departed 1, deserted 1, drew away 1, fall away 2, falls away 1, leave 1, left 2, let go 1, stay away 1, withdrew 1

So we have a wide range of possibilities, it seems that the subject matter has a direct influence on how the word is used. We see that LEAVE, LEFT, LET GO, DEPART, DEPARTED, WITHDREW, DESERTED (we will desert those on earth no doubt) are all things the Church could be described as doing during a Rapture !!  It all according to what a passage means. And as we see, 2 Thess. 2 is speaking about the Rapture (Gathering together unto the Lord) and how the Day of the Lord can not happen until the Church Departs the Earth. Just because you so bad want it to be one way, doesn't mean it is, the word apostasy may have come to mean what you say in today's society, but that is irrelevant to what it mean when it was written. 

[Salty]

19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Meanings of words constantly change, they do not always stay constant, as you seem to be assuming. 50-75 years ago "Gay" meant happy, now most people associate it with being a homosexual. apostasy comes from the Greek word apostisia, have you ever tracked down where the word came from ? I have in full. 

Apostisia comes fro m the Greek word Aphistemi which was derived from two Greek words Apo (away) and Histemi (stand)  properly, departure apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing." 

Why to you assume this has to be a "standing" of faith ? Can being on the earth, and Leaving/Departing for Heaven not be a changing of your standing ? Of course it can, if one departs earth for Heaven, NO DOUBT or standing has changed. We went from a corruptible body to an incorruptible body in a Twinkling of an eye !! 

Now lets look at how Aphistemi is used in the New Testament.....NAS Word Usage - Total: 14 abstain 1, depart 1, departed 1, deserted 1, drew away 1, fall away 2, falls away 1, leave 1, left 2, let go 1, stay away 1, withdrew 1

So we have a wide range of possibilities, it seems that the subject matter has a direct influence on how the word is used. We see that LEAVE, LEFT, LET GO, DEPART, DEPARTED, WITHDREW, DESERTED (we will desert those on earth no doubt) are all things the Church could be described as doing during a Rapture !!  It all according to what a passage means. And as we see, 2 Thess. 2 is speaking about the Rapture (Gathering together unto the Lord) and how the Day of the Lord can not happen until the Church Departs the Earth. Just because you so bad want it to be one way, doesn't mean it is, the word apostasy may have come to mean what you say in today's society, but that is irrelevant to what it mean when it was written. 

I assure you, the word apostasy has not changed today. Entertaining some idea that the meaning of the word changed since the days of the KJV translators is simply an attempt to change what God's Word plainly declares. See a KJV Dictionary, there is one written strictly for the Old English words in the original 1st edition 1611 KJV.

Definition of apostasy

plural

apostasies

1. 1 :  renunciation of a religious faith

2. 2 :  abandonment of a previous loyalty :  defection

 

 

 

[Salty]

21 hours ago, OneLight said:

Can you elaborate on this train of thought please.  It sounds like you are saying that people cannot fall away from the faith or truth.  Why add beasts into the mix of falling away.  What do they have to do with following the truth in scripture?

That's coming from movements like Joseph Prince, the once saved you cannot ever be accounted for sin anymore.

Obviously, those propbably have torn out the Revelation 2 & 3 chapters where our Lord Jesus rebuked five of the seven Churches in Asia for sins they were doing.

[Revelation Man]

11 hours ago, Salty said:

I assure you, the word apostasy has not changed today. Entertaining some idea that the meaning of the word changed since the days of the KJV translators is simply an attempt to change what God's Word plainly declares. See a KJV Dictionary, there is one written strictly for the Old English words in the original 1st edition 1611 KJV.

Definition of apostasy

plural

apostasies

1. 1 :  renunciation of a religious faith

2. 2 :  abandonment of a previous loyalty :  defection

 

 

 

Like I stated, which you seem to have not understood what I was speaking of, words change over time. What apostasy means now has no bearing on what it meant 2000 years ago. Gay in the dictionary 75 years ago would have said, Joyous, happy, nowadays the dictionary would say both happy and someone attracted to the opposite sex.

 

Apo away................... histemi a "stand" one has made

 

Away from a standing..... Apotasia means away from a previous standing. 

 

That can mean anything one stands for, it doesn't have to be religious in its original meaning. It has become to be know as such. 

It could have been a departure from and UNDERSTANDING........The Earth is Flat but I have moved away from that standing/Belief, that would be an apostisia.

It can also mean a Departure from a belief or a Departure from some place. 

The Old Languages had very limited words English has 500,000 words, the Old Hebrew had 4000 words. Greek a little more. 

[Salty]

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Like I stated, which you seem to have not understood what I was speaking of, words change over time.

I understood what you said, but regardless of what you believe the meaning of apostasy has NOT changed from when the KJV translators used it. It means to fall away from what one once held to, and it can especially apply to the concept of religious faith.

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, Salty said:

I understood what you said, but regardless of what you believe the meaning of apostasy has NOT changed from when the KJV translators used it. It means to fall away from what one once held to, and it can especially apply to the concept of religious faith.

Yes it has. Apostisia means a leaving/departing from a previous "Standing" (apo/away) and as you see it "now" means only a Departing/Leaving from a Religious standing, which is BOGUS/different from its original meaning of a Leaving/Departing from a STANDING of ANY KIND !! 

Apostasy is different from its original meaning. That is just a fact.

 

[Salty]

21 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Yes it has. Apostisia means a leaving/departing from a previous "Standing" (apo/away) and as you see it "now" means only a Departing/Leaving from a Religious standing, which is BOGUS/different from its original meaning of a Leaving/Departing from a STANDING of ANY KIND !! 

Apostasy is different from its original meaning. That is just a fact.

 

The word occurs in 1 Macc. 2:15 where Antiochus Epiphanes was requiring the Jews to convert to pagan idol worship instead of Judaism. That's how the word can especially... apply to leaving one's religion.

[Revelation Man]

57 minutes ago, Salty said:

The word occurs in 1 Macc. 2:15 where Antiochus Epiphanes was requiring the Jews to convert to pagan idol worship instead of Judaism. That's how the word can especially... apply to leaving one's religion.

And you only cite one reference. I said it can mean a leaving or departing from MANY THINGS, which would include a Religious standing, so what did your verse prove ? Nothing, and until you check out every verse where it is used or many of them, then you can not say that it was meant only for a Religious Standing Departing.

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).