Does Philosophy or Theology Better Explain Soul?

[spiffy]

On 4/26/2018 at 11:03 AM, enoob57 said:

Your very begin in this topic is in direct opposition to The Word of God dealing with the sufficiency of Scripture:

On 10/1/2016 at 10:58 AM, spiffy said:

  I tend to think Scripture alone is not sufficient to properly distinguish between soul and spirit. 

Scripture alone is not sufficient to properly distinguish between soul and spirit from a metaphysical point of view.  Ask 100 Christians to define soul and spirit and you'll get 40 different explanations, some version of which the remaining 60 will be scattered in opinion between the 40.  From a metaphysical standpoint, the Scriptural accounts (from both Testaments) are incoherent because, for example, some verses assign cognitive functions to soul while others assign similar functions to spirit.

Your graphic illustrates another example of interpretive incoherence popular among evangelicals, i.e., the doctrine that man's spirit is either wholly alive or wholly dead in sin.  Assuming one's spiritual condition is to a large degree responsible for the way one thinks and acts, this doctrine is unable to explain how it is that the atheist who hates God (and is presumably spiritually dead) yet shows compassion toward others, exhibits a conscience toward many moral goods and tries to get along and love his neighbor to the extent most Christians do.  Likewise, the professing Christian who claims a whole rebirth and cleansed, alive spirit still sins.  How can this be?  I've seen lots of Christians who claim to be born again treat others badly, lust after their neighbors, cheat on their taxes, etc.  So, yes, I'm well aware of popular doctrine.  Are you aware of its logical dilemmas?

My own theology attempts to incorporate both philosophical and theological concepts into as coherent a whole as possible.  I've found that those who abide wholly by Scripture, demanding that the word of God be their only guide only parrot the popular stuff they've been taught, most often from childhood (for those having grown up in the church).  The problem is, Christianity is merely a religion--one that has evolved over time into various doctrinally distinct 'clubs'.  The word of God can't contradict, yet most Christians zealously hold contradictory doctrines [as demonstrated with the wholly born again doctrine above] with nary a blink of the eye or loss of sleep.  Most settle on a version taught them by men, then defend that version to the grave without ever realizing that they have no desire in their heart to know the truth--if they did they would not accept a doctrine with blatant contradictions--but are wiling to represent their version of what the Bible says no matter the evidence shown them that some of those doctrines deny truth.  

The title of this section of the board [The substance of man: Body, Soul and Spirit] suggests discussion that would include looking at things from both theological and philosophical points of view, but all I'm seeing are the usual doctrinal constructs.

[Justin Adams]

Any of the man-ologies will lead you into the ditch.

Stick to the Creator's explanations!!

P.s. you do not have to be able to verbalize something in order to understand it completely.

[enoob57]

6 hours ago, spiffy said:

Scripture alone is not sufficient to properly distinguish between soul and spirit from a metaphysical point of view.  Ask 100 Christians to define soul and spirit and you'll get 40 different explanations, some version of which the remaining 60 will be scattered in opinion between the 40.  From a metaphysical standpoint, the Scriptural accounts (from both Testaments) are incoherent because, for example, some verses assign cognitive functions to soul while others assign similar functions to spirit.

Your graphic illustrates another example of interpretive incoherence popular among evangelicals, i.e., the doctrine that man's spirit is either wholly alive or wholly dead in sin.  Assuming one's spiritual condition is to a large degree responsible for the way one thinks and acts, this doctrine is unable to explain how it is that the atheist who hates God (and is presumably spiritually dead) yet shows compassion toward others, exhibits a conscience toward many moral goods and tries to get along and love his neighbor to the extent most Christians do.  Likewise, the professing Christian who claims a whole rebirth and cleansed, alive spirit still sins.  How can this be?  I've seen lots of Christians who claim to be born again treat others badly, lust after their neighbors, cheat on their taxes, etc.  So, yes, I'm well aware of popular doctrine.  Are you aware of its logical dilemmas?

My own theology attempts to incorporate both philosophical and theological concepts into as coherent a whole as possible.  I've found that those who abide wholly by Scripture, demanding that the word of God be their only guide only parrot the popular stuff they've been taught, most often from childhood (for those having grown up in the church).  The problem is, Christianity is merely a religion--one that has evolved over time into various doctrinally distinct 'clubs'.  The word of God can't contradict, yet most Christians zealously hold contradictory doctrines [as demonstrated with the wholly born again doctrine above] with nary a blink of the eye or loss of sleep.  Most settle on a version taught them by men, then defend that version to the grave without ever realizing that they have no desire in their heart to know the truth--if they did they would not accept a doctrine with blatant contradictions--but are wiling to represent their version of what the Bible says no matter the evidence shown them that some of those doctrines deny truth.  

The title of this section of the board [The substance of man: Body, Soul and Spirit] suggests discussion that would include looking at things from both theological and philosophical points of view, but all I'm seeing are the usual doctrinal constructs.

 

Quote

Scripture alone is not sufficient to properly distinguish between soul and spirit from a metaphysical point of view.  Ask 100 Christians to define soul and spirit and you'll get 40 different explanations, some version of which the remaining 60 will be scattered in opinion between the 40.  From a metaphysical standpoint, the Scriptural accounts (from both Testaments) are incoherent because, for example, some verses assign cognitive functions to soul while others assign similar functions to spirit.

Because you and I have began into an already created essence of corporeal and metaphysical we know observable... your opinion of the sufficiency of Scripture is the problem not the Scripture itself. You fail to see the ability of the regenerated Christian to have source both in the created corporeal world and s/Spiritual metaphysical elements... The reason of flip flop, as you see, is not due to elements being confused but rather the sourcing the soul draws from. In and of ourselves The Lord teaches that we are merely vessels to store truth or lie within. You seem to think much more of yourself in this; which would alter reality in this sense. The Word / Scripture is unity both in physical and Spiritual realities and is why The Lord used parables to explain s/Spiritual truth... The confusion lies within your sourcing of truth.

Quote

Your graphic illustrates another example of interpretive incoherence popular among evangelicals, i.e., the doctrine that man's spirit is either wholly alive or wholly dead in sin.  Assuming one's spiritual condition is to a large degree responsible for the way one thinks and acts, this doctrine is unable to explain how it is that the atheist who hates God (and is presumably spiritually dead) yet shows compassion toward others, exhibits a conscience toward many moral goods and tries to get along and love his neighbor to the extent most Christians do.  Likewise, the professing Christian who claims a whole rebirth and cleansed, alive spirit still sins.  How can this be?  I've seen lots of Christians who claim to be born again treat others badly, lust after their neighbors, cheat on their taxes, etc.  So, yes, I'm well aware of popular doctrine.  Are you aware of its logical dilemmas?

All you need to do is plug in what we talked about above here and you see your quandary vanish... as the atheist source is totally drawing from this world through sensual means and although it is of God's design with added curse due to sin- Lucifer has been hard at work to influence a love for it in the immediacy of the death/cessation for it has not been redeemed. Satan merely wants you to be an idolater. You also confuse Scripture with error in living them out... how oblivious are you to s/Spiritual realities The Scriptures teach only One Man was without sin "Jesus' so why would you expect those who through example of Scriptures trying to follow but failing an error in part with The Scripture? As far as your dilemmas in logic I always know my Lord has said to me
Isaiah 55:9 (KJV)
[9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
So based on my s/Spiritual relationship and years of knowing Him through His Word I know where the lack is and keep in myself the continuing effort to understand- not stupidly blaming The Scriptures...

Quote

My own theology attempts to incorporate both philosophical and theological concepts into as coherent a whole as possible.  I've found that those who abide wholly by Scripture, demanding that the word of God be their only guide only parrot the popular stuff they've been taught, most often from childhood (for those having grown up in the church).  The problem is, Christianity is merely a religion--one that has evolved over time into various doctrinally distinct 'clubs'.  The word of God can't contradict, yet most Christians zealously hold contradictory doctrines [as demonstrated with the wholly born again doctrine above] with nary a blink of the eye or loss of sleep.  Most settle on a version taught them by men, then defend that version to the grave without ever realizing that they have no desire in their heart to know the truth--if they did they would not accept a doctrine with blatant contradictions--but are wiling to represent their version of what the Bible says no matter the evidence shown them that some of those doctrines deny truth.

It is given to you to place faith in whatever you deem trustworthy... all I see is unskilled scholastic attempt moving into a prejudice further developing into a bias against God, Who, by the way 'IS' The only One present in all times and epochs the Bible, His Word, covers... You will one day stand before Him to give an account of yourself and what you have in your vessel; so far it is His Word is not sufficient yet God has already written down His Own Opinion that it is
2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.  
You, who have began, stands in direct disagreement with Him, Who has no begin... I don't think you will fare well in this!
Love, Steven

   

[spiffy]

On 4/29/2018 at 6:37 AM, enoob57 said:

your opinion of the sufficiency of Scripture is the problem not the Scripture itself. You fail to see the ability of the regenerated Christian to have source both in the created corporeal world and s/Spiritual metaphysical elements

You know nothing of my opinion of Scripture.  You'd do well to make an effort to ascertain what beliefs a person actually holds before charging him with having this or that opinion.  And I have no idea what this gibberish...

On 4/29/2018 at 6:37 AM, enoob57 said:

You fail to see the ability of the regenerated Christian to have source both in the created corporeal world and s/Spiritual metaphysical elements... The reason of flip flop, as you see, is not due to elements being confused but rather the sourcing the soul draws from. In and of ourselves The Lord teaches that we are merely vessels to store truth or lie within. You seem to think much more of yourself in this; which would alter reality in this sense. The Word / Scripture is unity both in physical and Spiritual realities and is why The Lord used parables to explain s/Spiritual truth... The confusion lies within your sourcing of truth.

...is supposed to mean. I doubt you have any legitimate idea of what I fail or succeed in seeing.  I presented a simple proof that the doctrine that the soul is wholly and actually made clean in a single "born again" experience is not borne out by evidence that is plain for any thinking human being to see: both Christian and atheist sin and exhibit fruits associated with the possession of spiritual life.  You appear to pen this as a "defense"...

On 4/29/2018 at 6:37 AM, enoob57 said:

the atheist source is totally drawing from this world through sensual means

Since your wording isn't clear, I'm assuming you're suggesting that atheists and those who hate God perform good acts 'accidentally' or with some evil motive in mind or some such argument.  This is a common attack by those attempting to defend the "wholly clean" born again doctrine.  The problem, for any thinking person, is that the atheist often does good and the Christian bad.  I've seen plenty of evil performed by members of organized Christianity and I'm sure you have too if you'll be honest about it.  Read Luke 10:30-35...Jesus Himself refutes this sort of reasoning.

 

On 4/29/2018 at 6:37 AM, enoob57 said:

You also confuse Scripture with error in living them out... how oblivious are you to s/Spiritual realities The Scriptures teach only One Man was without sin "Jesus' so why would you expect those who through example of Scriptures trying to follow but failing an error in part with The Scripture?

Yes, the Bible teaches that only one man was without sin.  The Lord will decide how "oblivious [I am] to s/Spiritual realities" in His own good time.  In the meantime He's given me a brain to think with. 

All good derives from the true.  God is truth (Jn 14:6, Psa 31:5, etc.).  A work is good because it involves truth in the soul in union with Truth Himself.  When the hated Pharisee had compassion on the man beaten by robbers, his compassion (as with all truly good virtues) was grounded in this true-True relationship.  Absolute Truth in union with truth in the human soul produces good thoughts and acts.  Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles.  Good follows naturally from the true, evil naturally from the false.  All are spiritually awakened (Jn 1:9) and possess by this awakening (spiritual birth; the imparting of truth to the essence [spirit] of man) the capacity to do good.  To the extent one chooses wrong or falsehood, one falsifies his/her soul and must die for that transgression:  "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 6:23)  Even though we allow hatred to grow, yet all possess some truth in inner being, and the mystery of the Scriptures is not that one man dies for his sin and goes to hell while the other lives for his faith, it is that ALL die for their sin and ALL are restored [at some point, some in life, others at the end of life] to faith.  Jesus did not die to prevent us from killing ourselves with self-imposed spiritual death, He died so that all who kill themselves are brought back to life: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit."  (Jn 12:24).  All those He grants life to (Jn 1:9) He claims from their self-imposed death:  "A bruised reed He will not break, And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice."  (Isa 42:3)  Isaiah 28:14-18 sums this up nicely.

Enoob57, you've accused me of pride, told me I'm oblivious to "spiritual realities", suggested I'm developing a "bias against God", etc.  There was nothing in my previous posts that justified your judgments; your responses tell me you failed to understand my position, have not the interest to ask questions to actually find out what I believe but instead prefer to blindly impose your erroneous interpretations as though they are the very truth of God [they are not, though all doctrine contains some truth].  I believe the reason for your irritation is that I provided light that incited the darkness inside you to go on the offensive.  Like most religionists, you beat the Scriptures into submission to your interpretive will.  You are legion, all trained by the same society.  Christ Jesus doesn't lend Himself to our religious formations, to our doctrinal fortresses built with the mortar of falsehood.  They'll all come tumbling down when the time comes, but the Lord is merciful to those who hide behind doctrinal walls just as He is to those who mouth their hatred for him.  Seems to me it's time for this thread to 'die on the rim' as they say, as nothing fruitful is developing here.  Finis.  PS why do you sign your posts "Love, Steven"?  What do you love, your doctrines?  Your interpretations?  Your religion?

[enoob57]

31 minutes ago, spiffy said:

You know nothing of my opinion of Scripture.  You'd do well to make an effort to ascertain what beliefs a person actually holds before charging him with having this or that opinion.  And I have no idea what this gibberish...

...is supposed to mean. I doubt you have any legitimate idea of what I fail or succeed in seeing.  I presented a simple proof that the doctrine that the soul is wholly and actually made clean in a single "born again" experience is not borne out by evidence that is plain for any thinking human being to see: both Christian and atheist sin and exhibit fruits associated with the possession of spiritual life.  You appear to pen this as a "defense"...

Since your wording isn't clear, I'm assuming you're suggesting that atheists and those who hate God perform good acts 'accidentally' or with some evil motive in mind or some such argument.  This is a common attack by those attempting to defend the "wholly clean" born again doctrine.  The problem, for any thinking person, is that the atheist often does good and the Christian bad.  I've seen plenty of evil performed by members of organized Christianity and I'm sure you have too if you'll be honest about it.  Read Luke 10:30-35...Jesus Himself refutes this sort of reasoning.

 

Yes, the Bible teaches that only one man was without sin.  The Lord will decide how "oblivious [I am] to s/Spiritual realities" in His own good time.  In the meantime He's given me a brain to think with. 

All good derives from the true.  God is truth (Jn 14:6, Psa 31:5, etc.).  A work is good because it involves truth in the soul in union with Truth Himself.  When the hated Pharisee had compassion on the man beaten by robbers, his compassion (as with all truly good virtues) was grounded in this true-True relationship.  Absolute Truth in union with truth in the human soul produces good thoughts and acts.  Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles.  Good follows naturally from the true, evil naturally from the false.  All are spiritually awakened (Jn 1:9) and possess by this awakening (spiritual birth; the imparting of truth to the essence [spirit] of man) the capacity to do good.  To the extent one chooses wrong or falsehood, one falsifies his/her soul and must die for that transgression:  "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 6:23)  Even though we allow hatred to grow, yet all possess some truth in inner being, and the mystery of the Scriptures is not that one man dies for his sin and goes to hell while the other lives for his faith, it is that ALL die for their sin and ALL are restored [at some point, some in life, others at the end of life] to faith.  Jesus did not die to prevent us from killing ourselves with self-imposed spiritual death, He died so that all who kill themselves are brought back to life: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit."  (Jn 12:24).  All those He grants life to (Jn 1:9) He claims from their self-imposed death:  "A bruised reed He will not break, And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice."  (Isa 42:3)  Isaiah 28:14-18 sums this up nicely.

Enoob57, you've accused me of pride, told me I'm oblivious to "spiritual realities", suggested I'm developing a "bias against God", etc.  There was nothing in my previous posts that justified your judgments; your responses tell me you failed to understand my position, have not the interest to ask questions to actually find out what I believe but instead prefer to blindly impose your erroneous interpretations as though they are the very truth of God [they are not, though all doctrine contains some truth].  I believe the reason for your irritation is that I provided light that incited the darkness inside you to go on the offensive.  Like most religionists, you beat the Scriptures into submission to your interpretive will.  You are legion, all trained by the same society.  Christ Jesus doesn't lend Himself to our religious formations, to our doctrinal fortresses built with the mortar of falsehood.  They'll all come tumbling down when the time comes, but the Lord is merciful to those who hide behind doctrinal walls just as He is to those who mouth their hatred for him.  Seems to me it's time for this thread to 'die on the rim' as they say, as nothing fruitful is developing here.  Finis.  PS why do you sign your posts "Love, Steven"?  What do you love, your doctrines?  Your interpretations?  Your religion?

We’re not connecting on any level here...there’s no sense in continuing .

[Mike 2]

Dare I wade into this.

Yown hit on a passage earlier that I think deserves closer consideration

1Co 2:10  But God has revealed those things to us by his Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God. 
1Co 2:11  Is there anyone who can understand his own thoughts except his own inner spirit? In the same way, no one can know the thoughts of God except God's Spirit. 
1Co 2:12  Now, we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we can understand the things that were freely given to us by God. 

We see that Gods thoughts and Gods Spirit are 2 different things.....the Spirit knows the thoughts  just as a mans thoughts and his spirit are 2 different things.

The "spirit" and the "thoughts" are separate both in God as we see above and in man as we also see above.

Keep in mind we are not talking about the spirit (ual) vs. the physical here.

Let's dig just a little deeper...

Joh 5:19  Jesus told them, "Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, the Son can do nothing on his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing, What the Father does, the Son does likewise.

How does the Son "see" what the Father is doing?......1Co 2:11  In the same way, no one can know the thoughts of God except God's Spirit. ....the Son knows through the Spirit communicating the "thoughts" of God.

"God" is made up of the Father, Holy Spirit and Son....if we understand the Spirit and the Son from these verses that leaves the "thoughts"......the "thoughts" must be the Father!

We know what the Son does so we have the Spirit and the Father left over for us to decide which is "spirit" and which is "soul"...and we have just looked at that relationship.

Paul struggled with the differences between knowing in his "thoughts" what was right but still doing what he does not want to do.......

Rom 7:20  But if I do what I don't want to do, I am no longer the one who is doing it, but it is the sin that is living in me.         * Paul knows what he "wants to do" *                                                             Rom 7:21  So I find this to be a principle: when I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me. 
Rom 7:22  For I delight in the Law of God in my inner being, 

Paul is talking about the struggle between his inner self (which I take to be his soul) knowing what is right and his spirit that is trying to react to fleshly things based on what he has learned from his worldly environment.

If we look at 1Co 2:12, we see that we receive a new "Spirit" that I assume acts as a "new choice" beside our old spirit to help us change our world view to a kingdom view and act accordingly.

Jesus exemplifies over and over again, particularly in John's gospel how the "Spirit that knows the thoughts (the Father) of God perfectly, without influence from the world "shows" the Son what the Father wants done.

Gen 1:27  So God created mankind in his own image; in his own image God created them; he created them male and female. Obviously this is not talking about the physical.

 

In fairness many debate that it is the spirit that influences the soul and the soul works out into the physical . I'm not clinging to what I've written but I haven't heard any other explanation that makes sense to me.....definitely haven't seen one in this discussion.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Mike 2

[Co - heir in Christ]

   One of the best books I've seen on the issue (although it appears deceptively small or simple) is, "The Total Man: Exploring the Human Spirit, Soul and Body," by Lester Sumrall.

   Rather than just parroting everything the book says, I'll just highly recommend the book.

   The Holy Spirit brought the book into my life after I'd been newly born again, because it was stuff I needed to understand in my walk w/ Him.

   

Edited May 14, 2019 by Co - heir in Christ
Typo

[missmuffet]

On 10/1/2016 at 8:58 AM, spiffy said:

The 'spirit/soul' question has interested me for years.  There are few topics in Christianity that give more widely varying answers than this one.  I tend to think Scripture alone is not sufficient to properly distinguish between soul and spirit.  The addition of philosophy (or maybe more accurately metaphysics) helps flesh out the issue, but still can't provide anything like a proper distinction. 

Seems to me the pertinent issues lie in at minimum trying to fit the following topics into a coherent whole:

* properties of each (spirit-soul) and how one works with the other in psychological terms; (is spirit better explained theologically and soul philosophically?)

* how do "good-evil" fit into the picture?

* can we find a way to overcome the "material-immaterial" conundrum and unify this with the "good-evil" and "spirit-soul" issues?

I'm interested to hear opinions.

It all depends if you want to hear God's perspective or man's perspective. 

 

[spiffy]

5 hours ago, missmuffet said:

It all depends if you want to hear God's perspective or man's perspective. 

 

I assume by this you mean only the Bible?  If so please elaborate.  What is "God's perspective" on the proper understanding of spirit and soul?

[missmuffet]

58 minutes ago, spiffy said:

I assume by this you mean only the Bible?  If so please elaborate.  What is "God's perspective" on the proper understanding of spirit and soul?

Read the Bible. That is God's perspective.