Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice

[markdohle]

Like many topics of this nature, it is an endless round going nowhere. I do think however that this topic shows how one can use scripture to back up an image of God that actually goes against the revelation of Jesus Christ. 

peace
mark

 

[markdohle]

1 minute ago, Yowm said:

And it shows how one can use Scripture while the other completely ignores the Scripture used.

Exodus chap 1 clearly shows Pharoah's heart was had a hard heart long before it states God hardened Pharaoh's heart.

Yes ;-) very true.  Yet he is good at lining up, I will say that for him, one of the best.

Peace

Mark

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 10/10/2016 at 9:59 AM, kwikphilly said:

Wow,well said.......................

Thanks Kwik,

Occasionally I can find my way through the smoke and mirrors!

[kwikphilly]

Occasionally? Dear humble Brother in Christ,you are a Blessing to us all.......................Praise Jesus!                         With love,Kwik

[kwikphilly]

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Yet he is good at lining up, I will say that for him, one of the best.

Peace

Mark

Google?Perhaps?    I just don't know but what I do know is when Scripture is taken out of context it is never a good thing                       With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Simon Hall]

I agree with you, Pierre, and the bible does as well.

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For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of decay into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. (Rom 8:20-21 WEB)

You don’t get much clearer than that. The creation and everything in it, including humanity, was subject to vanity by God’s will. We had no say in it.

No man has free will, because man did not create himself. The moment that we were created by something else, it goes without saying, that we couldn’t possibly have free will. Where was our say in being created?

So if the Lord created us without our say, wouldn’t it go without saying that He does whatever He wants with us at any time?

Where was Judas’ free will to betray Jesus? He didn’t have one.

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When Jesus had said this he was troubled in spirit, and gave witness, saying, Truly I say to you, that one of you will be false to me. Then the eyes of the disciples were turned on one another, in doubt as to whom he had in mind. There was at table one of his disciples, the one dear to Jesus, resting his head on Jesus' breast. Making a sign to him, Simon Peter said, Who is it he is talking about? He, then, resting his head on Jesus' breast, said to him, Lord, who is it? This was the answer Jesus gave: It is the one to whom I will give this bit of bread after I have put it in the vessel. Then he took the bit of bread, put it into the vessel, and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. And when Judas took the bread Satan went into him. Then Jesus said to him, Do quickly what you have to do. (John 13:21-27 BBE)

Even though Judas, sinful by nature, had already been stealing from the purse, notice that Satan only entered Judas after Jesus gave him the bread. Jesus even commanded him to go and do what he had to do. Judas had to do it, there is no free will or free choice or any other kind of choosing in that. Judas couldn’t even reject the bread that the Lord handed him. Think about it. Jesus said the one whom I give the bread to, not the one who will choose to take it out of my hand if I hold my hand open with the bread in it, in the middle of the table. Even though Jesus could have done that as well if He wanted to and Judas still would have taken the bread, because it was already written.

If Jesus was the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world, doesn’t it stand to reason that someone was predestined from before the foundation of the world to betray Him, and even kill Him. Jesus didn’t just show up at some random time in history and hope that someone, someday would want to betray Him. The Lord is sovereign. He determines all things.

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For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I caused you to be raised up, that I might show in you my power, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires. You will say then to me, “Why does he still find fault? For who withstands his will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? As he says also in Hosea, “I will call them ‘my people,’ which were not my people; and her ‘beloved,’ who was not beloved.” “It will be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’” (Rom 9:17-26 WEB)

It's not our choice if we are to be a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor. It’s the Lord’s choice. And if a person says “I will not be a vessel of dishonor despite what God thinks”, then you are a heretic and antichrist. Because, as Jesus said, and so must we, “not my will, Father, but Your will be done”. 

 

Jeremiah didn’t have any say in whether he was going to be God’s prophet or not, or what God was going to accomplish through him. Jeremiah was simply chosen and formed by God to accomplish God’s will. No human free will there.

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Now Yahweh’s word came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I sanctified you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Then I said, “Ah, Lord Yahweh! Behold, I don’t know how to speak; for I am a child.” But Yahweh said to me, “Don’t say, ‘I am a child;’ for you must go to whomever I send you, and you must say whatever I command you. Don’t be afraid because of them, for I am with you to rescue you,” says Yahweh. Then Yahweh stretched out his hand, and touched my mouth. Then Yahweh said to me, “Behold, I have put my words in your mouth. Behold, I have today set you over the nations and over the kingdoms, to uproot and to tear down, to destroy and to overthrow, to build and to plant.” (Jer 1:4-10 WEB)

What about Saul, who became the apostle Paul? Does anyone think that he was calling out to the Lord to be converted, on the road to Damascus. On the contrary, in his mind, he was setting out to persecute more Christians.

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But Saul, still breathing threats and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. As he traveled, he got close to Damascus, and suddenly a light from the sky shone around him. He fell on the earth, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” He said, “Who are you, Lord?” The Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise up, and enter into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the sound, but seeing no one. Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened, he saw no one. They led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. He was without sight for three days, and neither ate nor drank. Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias!” He said, “Behold, it’s me, Lord.” The Lord said to him, “Arise, and go to the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judah for one named Saul, a man of Tarsus. For behold, he is praying, and in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in, and laying his hands on him, that he might receive his sight.” But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he did to your saints at Jerusalem. Here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” But the Lord said to him, “Go your way, for he is my chosen vessel to bear my name before the nations and kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for my name’s sake.” (Act 9:1-16 WEB)

Saul, soon to become Paul, had no choice and no free will either. If you are the Lord’s chosen vessel as Paul was, do you think you can choose. Even Moses tried to fob God off, but God wasn’t having a bar of it. We all know that in the end Moses went and did what he was told to do.

 Now there are those that say “yes, we know that the Lord is sovereign, but He still gave us free will”, but those who say that, don’t truly believe that the Lord is sovereign at all.

Let’s say for one second that eternal torment does exist, not that it does, but for the sake of this next argument let’s say it does.

We have on one hand, God, who people say is sovereign and all powerful, and on the other hand we have Satan, who people say, while being very powerful is not as powerful as God. Yet, when it comes down to the crux of most modern religious beliefs, nearly all those people who say that they believe God is omnipotent and more powerful than the devil, actually believe that the devil is going to influence more people and trick more people from the history of the world in to going to this place of eternal punishment called hell, than what an ALL POWERFUL GOD can influence or convince them to believe in Jesus Christ and to choose eternity with Him in a place called heaven. It’s like saying that if the Lord and Satan were to have a debate, Satan would win. WHAT A LOAD OF HOGWASH. 

Saul truly believed with all of his heart that he was serving the one and only True Living God. Even willing to torture and kill people for the god he believed in, as are some Muslims doing right now. But, when the Lord determined the time according to His will, He revealed Himself to Saul in no uncertain terms, so there could be no doubt and no debate.

And as the Lord did for Saul and has done for others over the history of the world as proven in the bible, so He will do for all men. And He will not be finished until He has every last sheep in His fold. Now that’s the Good News!!!

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For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For God is one, and there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1Ti 2:3-6 MKJV)

If God says He will have all men to be saved, then all men will be saved. Otherwise that would make Him a liar and a scoundrel, instead of the All Powerful, All Loving God that He is.

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If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable. But now Christ has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s, at his coming. Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For, “He put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when he says, “All things are put in subjection”, it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him. When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all. (1Co 15:19-28 WEB)

Absolutely Good News!!!

For those whose time it is to have ears to hear and eyes to see.

Contending for the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Simon Hall

Edited October 13, 2016 by Simon Hall

[Ezra]

27 minutes ago, Simon Hall said:

Now there are those that say “yes, we know that the Lord is sovereign, but He still gave us free will”, but those who say that, don’t truly believe that the Lord is sovereign at all.

Well Simon, since the sovereign Lord God accepts "freewill offerings" there must be a reason why He calls them "freewill offerings" rather than "robotic offerings".

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Ezra.....

   Besides ,being "subjected to" is having the "tendency" but it is conditional.....there is a choice to be made 

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Romans 8:20-21King James Version (KJV)

²⁰ For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

²¹ Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

IN HOPE.......The Glorious Liberty is the FREEDOM that is available to every single person Who CHOOSES to Trust God in Christ Jesus,His Finished Work on the cross........if they were all to Receive Gods Grace there would be no need for our Savior

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So if the Lord created us without our say, wouldn’t it go without saying that He does whatever He wants with us at any time?      Simon

Am I not reading this correctly,is this not contradicting itself?

[Guest Butero]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 0:19 AM, Yowm said:

You missed my whole point. God started hardening Pharoahs heart long after Pharoah had already hardened his own heart.

That really doesn't change anything.  I could have a hard heart starting out, but after being chastised, on my own would be ready to soften it and change, sort of like Ahab when he began to walk softly and humble himself when judgment was pronounced against him.  If God hardened Pharaoh's heart to keep it hard, God was still effecting the outcome.  He was ensuring that Pharaoh would not repent.  I really don't see the logic in your argument.  Of course, I would also say that God created Pharaoh to be such a person as he would have a hard heart automatically, so even that was the will of God. 

I came upon this thread, and was curious what was being discussed.  I hope to get back to the Soap Box later this evening, Lord willing and time permitting. 

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, Yowm said:

Pharoah's heart was already hard before it was stated that God hardened Pharoah's heart.

God's foreknowledge of the ultimate state of Pharaoh's heart would make it appear as predestination.  So God could say that He created Pharaoh to be a "vessel of wrath".

But Pharaoh was no different than any other tyrant.  He could have chosen to be righteous but chose evil instead. Beyond a certain point evil men cannot do anything other than evil.