QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

[Ezra]

3 minutes ago, eileenhat said:

The Saints are not 'the clouds'.

The saints and angels appear as clouds surrounding Christ. Obviously they are not clouds, but their whiteness and brightness gives the appearance of clouds.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7).

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 14,15).

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. (2 Thess 1:7-10).

[JohnD]

2 hours ago, n2thelight said:

We always talk about this 3 1/2 year trib,does one not understand that Christ said it would be cut short?

It will be cut short to 6 months,as in the time of the locust.

Just thought Id share

 

The second 3.5 year tribulation is what is shortened:

Matthew 24:15–22 (AV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Daniel 12:11–12 (AV)
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The believer's tribulation (first half of the 70th week of Daniel) will be when the false Jewish messiah comes onto the scene blaspheming Jesus and blaming Christians for all the world's ills. It will be open season on people who do not turn away from Christ. This is the tribulation of he saints at the hands of the devil (through the world).

The great tribulation is the tribulation of the world by God. Believers will be dead or raptured. The "elect" in Matthew 24:22 are the Jews who survive to the point in Armageddon that Jesus returns (right as they are about to be annihilated). Once the false messiah believed he had rid the earth of Christians, he will betray the Jews and resort to the first world religion (created by Satan) through 'his Moses' Nimrod (Babylonianism on the plains of Shinar). Then he will blame the Jews as he had blamed the Christians for all the ills of the world (which in that day will be the plagues sent from God in the great tribulation).

The world sees the answer to both situations is to eliminate "the guilty." Indecision / leaving people alone to make their own choices is to set them up to pay a very heavy price.

The shortening of the days refers to the brevity of the great tribulation as compared to the tribulation of the saints. It will not be until day 1335 of the 2520 day 70th Week of Daniel that the rapture occurs (past the 1260 day middle).

[JohnD]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

That should be "saints and angels", not just angels.

Angels (messengers) can be humans (saints) or cherubs or seraphs or even one of the individuals of the Godhead (the Angel of the LORD) so long as they are sent.

[Salty]

5 hours ago, eileenhat said:

What does "coming in the clouds' (regarding son of man) mean"?

If you do your homework you will know God has his angels in heaven and I have seen them often depicted on clouds.

So...to translate this one passage: Mark 13:26  "...Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."

Translation:  Jesus will come to Earth with his faithful angels.

They come with him to here.

They are his support, here.

Think of it like this.  You see one person talking from afar, do you listen?  No.

You see one man afar with many followers.  Now you pay attention.

We may not see his angels because they now are in human form (I explained this mystery on another thread), but it clearly (as God revealed to me) says they come with him.

He is no different in one respect than the Lord, our Father.

In Revelations, John witnesses God with his host of angels.  They are God's witnesses.  They give accounts of his glory, grace and wisdom.  So too they now enter Earth to ascend all of his God's followers here by giving such authority to Jesus (due to the fulfilling of Revelations 20 (we are at the start of the 1000 year reign) occurring).

What I wrote there was in response to Daniel's following Darby's 1830's Pre-trib Rapture theory. I quoted our Lord Jesus for when He said He comes to gather His saints, and that means His Church.

I well understand our bodily makeup and those of us alive on earth on the day of Christ's 2nd coming will be changed at the twinkling of an eye like Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15.

But because of old Church traditions, the majority think that 'change' will only occur for those of Christ's Church that are raptured, when actually, Bible Scripture reveals it will happen upon all peoples and nations per Isaiah 25 where Paul was teaching the 'death swallowed up in victory' idea from.

John 5:28-29 per Jesus also shows the wicked dead are resurrected on the day of Christ's return also. The Daniel 12:2 verse is a parallel to that John 5:28-29 event.

As for Jesus coming in the clouds and our gathering to Him per 1 Thess.4, that does not say we are taken to Heaven where The Father is. It shows that when Jesus DESCENDS to this earth, He brings the "asleep" saints that had already died with Him, and then those of us still alive on earth are "caught up" with them into the "air" (the heaven around the earth, i.e., the sky, not into Heaven where The Father is).

1 Cor.15:23-28 shows Jesus is to reign over His enemies until they are made His footstool, and that The Father is not included in that. Then after the 1,000 years, Jesus will deliver up the kingdom to The Father. That's what Paul showed there. So that is one Biblical proof of many that the full Godhead does not return to earth until after the Millennium. It is also proof of The Godhead of God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit, 3 Persons yet one GOD.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

 

"What does "coming in the clouds' (regarding son of man) mean"?

"The Saints are not 'the clouds'"

 

Neither are the clouds angels

The clouds that surround the Lord are His Shekinah Glory [Exodus 24:16-18]

This supernatural phenomena always accompanies the Lord's presence  

 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2016 by Daniel 11:36

[Salty]

20 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"The only reason there is controversy over it is because of so many that heed men's doctrines instead of sticking to what God's Word actually declares as written"

 

You have the end of the tribulation in view above .... after the days of the tribulation [Revelation 1:7]

The gatherings at the time will be of the mortal survivors of the tribulation .... of Israel [Matthew 24:29-31], of the nations of the Gentiles [Matthew 25:31-46]

There are no resurrections to immortality of any of these and those found believing will enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth .... as mortals [Revelation 20:1-4]

There are three resurrections of the first kind to immortality noted in Revelation's unfolding in the following order:

The Lord's early call [pre-tribulation] for today's true ecclesia of both the dead in Christ and the living at the time .... those who dwell in heaven during the tribulation [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 .... those already on thrones]

The Lord's two prophets at the end of the tribulation period [Revelation 11:7-12]

Then the martyrs of those who will become believers during the tribulation [Revelation 6:9-11; 15:2-3]

That Mark 13:24-27 event of when Jesus comes to gather His saints on earth is a parallel to those still alive on earth being "caught up" per 1 Thess.4.

But the Matthew 24:29-31 version of that is about Jesus gathering the "asleep" saints from Heaven that He brings with Him, as per Paul also in 1 Thess.4.

Furthermore, the signs Jesus gave in those chapters of His Olivet discourse are the signs of the Seals in Revelation 6, and Christ's Revelation was written to His Church.

That is why the Pre-trib Rapture school's theory that those Mark 13 and Matthew 24 Scriptures are only meant for Israel is a false doctrine. It's obvious they haven't even looked at the differences between those two versions that declare Christ coming after the trib to gather His Church, and compared them with what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4. I've noticed that many on that Pre-trib rapture theory don't even understand what all Paul declared in 1 Thess.4 about the gathering of the Church.

So like I had said, if you stick to God's Word as written you get one thing, but if you stick to men's doctrines you get something else other than God's Word.

 

[Salty]

20 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"The only reason there is controversy over it is because of so many that heed men's doctrines instead of sticking to what God's Word actually declares as written"

 

You have the end of the tribulation in view above .... after the days of the tribulation [Revelation 1:7]

The gatherings at the time will be of the mortal survivors of the tribulation .... of Israel [Matthew 24:29-31], of the nations of the Gentiles [Matthew 25:31-46]

There are no resurrections to immortality of any of these and those found believing will enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth .... as mortals [Revelation 20:1-4]

There are three resurrections of the first kind to immortality noted in Revelation's unfolding in the following order:

The Lord's early call [pre-tribulation] for today's true ecclesia of both the dead in Christ and the living at the time .... those who dwell in heaven during the tribulation [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 .... those already on thrones]

The Lord's two prophets at the end of the tribulation period [Revelation 11:7-12]

Then the martyrs of those who will become believers during the tribulation [Revelation 6:9-11; 15:2-3]

That Mark 13:24-27 event of when Jesus comes to gather His saints on earth is a parallel to those still alive on earth being "caught up" per 1 Thess.4.

But the Matthew 24:29-31 version of that is about Jesus gathering the "asleep" saints from Heaven that He brings with Him, as per Paul also in 1 Thess.4.

Furthermore, the signs Jesus gave in those chapters of His Olivet discourse are the signs of the Seals in Revelation 6, and Christ's Revelation was written to His Church.

That is why the Pre-trib Rapture school's theory that those Mark 13 and Matthew 24 Scriptures are only meant for Israel is a false doctrine. It's obvious they haven't even looked at the differences between those two versions that declare Christ coming after the trib to gather His Church, and compared them with what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4. I've noticed that many on that Pre-trib rapture theory don't even understand what all Paul declared in 1 Thess.4 about the gathering of the Church.

So like I had said, if you stick to God's Word as written you get one thing, but if you stick to men's doctrines you get something else other than God's Word.

 

[Salty]

11 hours ago, JohnD said:

No, the traditional mid-trib rapture camp assumes one seven-year tribulation. As do traditional pre-trib and post trib rapture camps.

I said mid 70th week of Daniel. What's the difference? you might ask...

There are two tribulations within the seven-year 70th week of Daniel. The believer's tribulation at the hands of the world (led by Satan) for 42 months (1260 days / time times and half a time) approximately 3.5 years. And the remainder is the great tribulation by the hand of God. No believer will be in the latter tribulation because the wrath of God for the believer was poured out on Jesus on the cross.

Once one understands the 70th week of Daniel, they understand that the one rapture takes place PRE great tribulation, MID 70th week of Daniel and POST believer's tribulation.

 

I certainly disagree with that, not what The Bible teaches.

The final 7 or KJV "one week" of Daniel 9:27 is divided into two 1260 day periods.

The gathering of the saints with Jesus' 2nd coming per the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 and 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 Scriptures is to occur immediately after the "great tribulation" He warned us about.

The time of the "great tribulation" He mentioned beginning when they see the "abomination of desolation" placed. That is at the mid point of Daniel's final "one week". It begins the latter 1260 days (or 42 months) which is when the "dragon" of Rev.13 is given to make war on the saints and overcome them:

Rev 13:4-7
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
KJV

 

So right there we are given a direct link between the latter 1260 days of the time of "great tribulation" with the time of the dragon's reign and persecution of Christ's Church on earth. That is a direct link to Daniel 7:21. And Jesus gave that through His servant John to His Church, which means those in Christ Jesus today.

One can find another description of the dragon or serpent attacking God's people who keep His commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ at Revelation 12:7 forward.

 

Edited December 28, 2016 by Salty

[Salty]

4 hours ago, JohnD said:

 

The great tribulation is the tribulation of the world by God. Believers will be dead or raptured. The "elect" in Matthew 24:22 are the Jews who survive to the point in Armageddon that Jesus returns (right as they are about to be annihilated). Once the false messiah believed he had rid the earth of Christians, he will betray the Jews and resort to the first world religion (created by Satan) through 'his Moses' Nimrod (Babylonianism on the plains of Shinar). Then he will blame the Jews as he had blamed the Christians for all the ills of the world (which in that day will be the plagues sent from God in the great tribulation).

 

It sounds like you got that idea from the Pre-trib Rapture theory. It's not Biblical. The latter 1260 day period is the time of "great tribulation" upon Christ's Church, and it is the only time of tribulation for the end, and it is by Satan, not God (though our Heavenly Father is allowing it).

For the latter 1260 day period, Satan is booted out of Heaven down to this earth with his angels per Revelation 12:7 forward, and then attacks Christ's Church as written there, for that is who has the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

What will end that latter 1260 day period will be the events of the "day of the Lord". The specific 'wrath' Apostle Paul said we are not appointed to is God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked on the final day of this world, which is the "day of the Lord". That also is when Bible Scripture shows us Jesus comes to gather His Church, on the 7th Vial. Jesus comes "as a thief" like He said in Rev.16:15, and that's when the "day of the Lord" also happens "as a thief in the night" per 1 Thess.5 and 2 Peter 3:10.

 

[kwikphilly]

Quote

The clouds that surround the Lord are His Shekinah Glory [Exodus 24:16-18]                                        Daniel

 

Quote

Exodus 24:16-18King James Version (KJV)

¹⁶ And the glory of the Lord abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

¹⁷ And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

¹⁸ And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.

The Word speaks of "The Glory" & of the "cloud" .....I'm not going to give a lesson in Hebrew but 2 different words are used here  one for "Glory" kâbôd  kâbôd
kaw-bode', kaw-bode'
From H3513; properly weight; but only figuratively in a good sense, splendor or copiousness: - glorious (-ly), glory, honour (-able). and another for "cloud" ‛ânân
aw-nawn'
From H6049; a cloud (as covering the sky), that is, the nimbus or thunder cloud: - cloud (-y).

 

So ,no.....the cloud is not Gods Glory