Babylon, the Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast Explained.

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, eileenhat said:

Here is the thing Revelationman, while we can contest what Revelations refers too, facts will eventually emerge to rectify any ideas that have surfaced over the years.

While you might feel you've figured it out, you can not be certain, as you heard this information or came by it through earnest research, but that does not make certain of it's accuracy.

Sure we can, its called Hearing the Holy Spirit. God sent us the Holy Spirit. BUT.........Just as he did Jesus, Satan seeks to confuse, "Man shall not live by BREAD ALONE, to which Jesus said, Get thee behind me Satan for IT IS WRITTEN.....Satan never stops speaking to us, but we must learn the difference between Satan's voice, and Gods voice.  Satan lied to Peter in the Garden of Gethsemane, LETS FIGHT FOR JESUS THE MASTER (Basically what he said) but Jesus told Peter, Get thee behind me Satan. YOU SEE, Jesus had already told Peter, my Kingdom is not of this world..............BUT Peter listened to Satan/Flesh and not to the Masters voice, he became DISTRACTED.

 

God is telling us all things in due time, but we have to listen, and rebuke Satan's lies. It amazes me that 50 Christians can have 50 different understandings, we know that's of Satan, God doesn't change. That is why if its a mans understanding he should say, THIS IS MY LOGICAL BELIEF, not this is what God has shown me, there is a huge difference. Sadly, most really don't seem to understand that, they know everything, I stick to the things God has revealed to me, and other things I pipe in on, but say, thats just my belief. God can change my beliefs, you see my beliefs can be wrong, since I am human/flesh, but God is never wrong, of course. GB

[Salty]

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

Yes it is, you are just not being real. The word Jesus is not there either, the Greek word for Jesus is Iesous. The word for Rapture is HARPAZO, it is the Greek word, the Latin word is Rapiemur (rapio) which was translated from the Latin (Vulgate) to English as either "we shall be snatched" or "we shall be grabbed" or "we shall be carried off" and so forth.  Similarly, harpagesometha (harpazo root word) has been translated from Greek into English as “we shall be caught up” or “we shall be taken away,” and etc. Moreover, as already mentioned, with every Latin and English translation of harpagesometha the meaning of this Greek verb always connotes a catching or taking that will be a violent, sudden event!

 

HARPAZO (Rapture, Take, Snatch, Force, Pull, Pluck, Catch, Catch Up, Catch Away) Scriptures

Definition: Harpazo

v.

1. to seize, carry off by force

2. to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly

3. to snatch out or away

~ from Thayer’s (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

Regardless of what you say, GREEK and LATIN are two different languages. And Thayer's does just like Strong's does, i.e., provides other words of how the Greek word harpazo was TRANSLATED TO ENGLISH based on the Bible version, which is the only reason it gives the word rapture as an option in the English.

So like I said - the word 'rapture' is NOT in the Greek New Testament manuscripts! It is an abused word by those on the Pre-trib Rapture theory too, because JUST AS HOW YOU USED IT IN A PREVIOUS POST; you used it by itself which hides the fact that what your pushing is actually a PRE-TRIBULATIONAL rapture, and not just 'a rapture'. So go try and skunk someone else on that, I don't buy your rhetoric.

....

No need to try and school me on God's Word or men's traditions on the usage of that Greek word harpazo. I well understand its meaning from the Scripture examples where it appears. Those on the Pre-trib Rapture theory do not... understand how it is meant in 1 Thess.4 because they try to separate Paul's "last trump" event in 1 Cor.15 from it. And there are many other additions to Scripture that Pre-trib Rapture theory does which is why I will never, ever... accept it. It is a doctrine from men, and not God.

 

 

[Salty]

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Israel as a Nation, excepts Jesus as their Messiah before the Abomination of Desolation happens. (Malachi 4:5-6, Zechariah 12:10 and 13:1) Thus ALL ISRAEL (The Nation/Not all Jews) is Saved. No one becomes Israels "King" because thy Flee into the Wilderness where God protects them, there will be a few Jewish sellouts, but Israel flees to the wilderness. This whole philosophy that the Anti-Christ becomes the King of the Jews is just pure fantasy. Rome was not the "Capital" of Israel in 33 AD were they ? No, even though they were a Defeated foe, there Capital was STILL Jerusalem, so your point makes no sense to me.

You're Jewish, aren't you? Sounds like it with that kind of false hope for orthodox Jews in Israel. No, the nation of Israel will NOT accept Christ Jesus prior to the placing of the "abomination of desolation" at the midpoint of Daniel's final "one week" of Dan.9:27. They are going to accept the coming pseudo-Christ as Messiah, as many Christian Churches will also, the majority of the whole world for that matter.

So just like how you've got the time of Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of the Church wrong, you've also got the events and timing of that Malachi 4 and Zech.12 Scripture wrong. Did Jerusalem listen to John the Baptist in the role of Elijah? No, Herod even had his head cut off. You need to look at Rev.11 again about God's two witnesses in Jerusalem for the end, and how the people there REJOICE over their dead bodies laying in the street!

To show how you've got the timing for Zech.12:10 wrong, all one need do is look at the Zech.12:9 verse which is about Armageddon when the armies out of the northern quarters come upon Jerusalem, which is when Jesus comes to gather His Church and the deceived orthodox Jews then see Him and mourn for Him, because they realize they had rejected Him. Even in His Olivet discourse He showed that:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

That includes the orthodox Jews in the nation of Israel that will do that mourning for Christ Jesus when He returns, and that's the timing of that Zech.12:10 Scripture.

 

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

They are about KINGS.........NOWHERE are they called BEASTS.

NO.....The Dream is showing you that all Governments that are OF MAN will be destroyed. The Statue signifies mans attempt to serve himself over God. Those Kingdoms are Dead and Gone............It might be a word wide Beast System, but the Ruler will be a Grecian Ruling from Europe.

Give up that rhetoric, no one is listening.

 

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Church will not be here and Israel will be protected by God in the Wilderness, so just who are those he is over ? Most who reject him will be beheaded. They are the Christians under the Alter in the 5th Seal.

You need to read Rev.12 more carefully. It doesn't show the "woman" after verse 5 is the nation of Israel, but instead as Christ's Church:

Rev 12:6
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
KJV

Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

That's not about unbelieving Israel. It's about Christ's Church, of both BELIEVING Israelite and Gentile.

And that Rev.12:17 verse shows Christ's Church will be HERE on earth for that "dragon" to make war with as also written in Dan.7:21 and Rev.13:7.

 

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

It has nothing to do with Why Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome were called BEASTS though. That is the point.

Israel will have EXCEPTED Jesus as their Messiah by this time, so they are not seen by God as a sullen prostitute anymore. Its called REPENTANCE !! You have your timing off. In Rev. 16 I prove exactly who it is. The Anti-Christ/10 Kings/False Prophet DO WHAT ? They entice the KINGS OF THE EAST (Iran,Iraq, all the Arabs, Ethiopia, Sudan etc. etc to come against Israel. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CHINA. This is what confuses many of you about Islam, they do come against Israel, but only after they have been SUBJUGATED by the anti-Christ and the 10 European Kings.  So you see, I understand, and always have about the Kings of the East coming against Israel. But the European Union or Revived Rome are the PACK LEADERS. 

Because of how God uses the word "beast" to apply to both a pagan kingdom and a pagan king over it, like in Rev.13 & 17 especially, then that idea must be understood when reading the Book of Daniel also. Christ's Revelation was given to His Church to reveal many things previously written in the OT prophets too, and not just things written in the NT.

You don't fool me. Based on what you've revealed about yourself coming from that false doctrine that the orthodox Jews in the nation of Israel are going to turn to Jesus Christ prior to the great tribulation is simply a load of bull! It is definitely not Biblical!

You may fool some, but not me! You sound like you're on an agenda to support orthodox Jewry (the "Jews' religion" per Apostle Paul) that had Christ crucified!

Tell me WHY the orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering materials to build another temple in Jerusalem and start up the old covenant style worship with animal sacrifices and the Levitical priesthood, etc.???

http://www.templemountfaithful.org/

 

[Salty]

14 hours ago, douggg said:

 That's the part you are wrong on.    She on a beast having 7 heads.    She is not sitting on seven heads.    Nor is she sitting on ten horns.  

Can't you simply read the text?     The woman is sitting on the beast - but not the horns or nor heads.

 

17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

 

The 7 heads represent:

1.   the place, 7 mountains or hills, where the woman sits - which is Rome, the beast is the Roman Empire.

2.   7 kings related to that place.

In Daniel 7, the fourth empire is the Roman Empire.       The king associated with the Roman Empire in Daniel 7 is the little horn person, who becomes the beast person in Revelation 13.       The beast, as a kingdom in Revelation 13, is the Roman Empire, and in the endtimes, it is the EU.

The four beasts in Daniel 7 are four kingdoms and four kings.     The fourth kingdom is the Roman Empire.   The fourth kingdom king is the little horn person.

In Revelation 13, the beast coming out of the sea is the same as in Daniel 7.

1. The beast, as a kingdom, is the end times Roman Empire - the EU.

2. The beast, as a king, is the little horn person (king 7) who will be killed and come back to life possessed by the unclean spirit in the bottomless pit as king 8.

 

It is so simple, but you get it all convoluted.       There is going to be a ten leader form of the EU, which one person becomes the leader of.   The 7th Julio-Claudian leader of the Roman Empire.    That person is the little horn.    Following Gog/Magog, the Jews will think he is ther messiah, and the person becomes the king of Israel.  

He betrays them by claiming to be God.   They reject him accordingly.   The person is killed and comes back to life, and is backed by the EU leaders, and he thus becomes the 8th king...   the beast in Revelation 13 that the world worships.

 

You are using the term LAST BEAST, in conjunction with your notion that there are 6 prior beasts.     That's where you are convoluting everything.   What you really mean is SEVENTH beast (in your interpretation).    But confuse the issue by saying LAST BEAST.     There are no 7 beasts to start with.     You are creating that notion.   

Do you read anywhere that I (or anyone else for that matter) have said anything about a LAST BEAST?     No.    Because there are only four beasts in Daniel 7.     And Revelation concerns itself only with the fourth beast that the little horn will emerge from.

There are 7 "kings".   Not 7 "beasts".    Not 7 "KIngdoms.

 

 

But douggg, you've got the same rhetoric as Revelation Man does on that Rome idea for the end.

The orthodox unbelieving Jews are getting ready to build another temple in Jerusalem for the trib. Rev.11:1-2 and 2 Thess.2:4 reveals there will be another one built for the end.

You both sound like a wrestling tag-team with the same message about Rome.

 

The Books of Daniel and Revelation, and Christ's Olivet discourse do not point to Rome. They point directly to Jerusalem.

The majority of Christian brethren that read this Forum well know that the coming Antichrist/pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem MUST be of Jewish origin, and NOT a pope, nor ANY leader from the E.U. The orthodox Jews would NEVER accept a 'foreigner' as their Messiah, period, end of story!

Orthodox Jews bowing down in worship to a pope, or any Gentile?!? It's ridiculous!

 

 

[Salty]

5 hours ago, eileenhat said:

Here is the thing Revelationman, while we can contest what Revelations refers too, facts will eventually emerge to rectify any ideas that have surfaced over the years.

While you might feel you've figured it out, you can not be certain, as you heard this information or came by it through earnest research, but that does not make certain of it's accuracy.

The only way to know personally right now what is true is to have God inform you.   But that is not a common occurrence.

We are told to verify information we have received that we attest is from God, ...as I do in fact.

All I receive I verify with research and then pass on to those who are interested in researching it for themselves.

So I assert we have passed through all the signs and will receive them no longer.

That of course will lead to many feeling that perhaps we have to wait until another age comes around again that repeats all the signage.

That or just adjust.

 

Careful, you're starting to sound like the false prophets who try to claim they only... have true revelation of knowledge from God.

Remember what Apostle Peter said:

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
KJV

 

ANYONE who disciplines theirself in study of God's Word like how He showed (Isa.28), and asks Him for understanding in It as a believer on His Son Jesus Christ is promised the help of The Holy Spirit which Jesus said will show us all things. God's Word was written through man by The Holy Spirit like Peter showed above, and that is how It must also be received and understood.

 

[douggg]

5 hours ago, Salty said:

But douggg, you've got the same rhetoric as Revelation Man does on that Rome idea for the end.

   i hear what you are saying, Salty.    He says Rome, the EU, but for all the wrong reasons.    And Revelation Man does not believe that the person who becomes the beast is ever the King of Israel at some point - whereas I do.

What I am most objective to is his interpretation of the seven kings - as being kingdoms, and beasts.    And his claims that the mountains - represented by the seven heads - that those mountains represent kings.     It is really convoluted - which he does it to work Assyria and Egypt into the picture.    Which I say to him that Assyria and Egypt have nothing to do with Daniel 7 or the Revelation Beast.     In Revelation, it is about the fourth emprie that the little horn person comes out of.

 

5 hours ago, Salty said:

The orthodox unbelieving Jews are getting ready to build another temple in Jerusalem for the trib. Rev.11:1-2 and 2 Thess.2:4 reveals there will be another one built for the end.

Yes, I believe that the Jews will soon build another temple.     They will be probably have a interim downsized structure to get the animal sacrifices going as quickly as possible.    But I don't expect anything until after Gog/Magog.     We'll see.

 

5 hours ago, Salty said:

The Books of Daniel and Revelation, and Christ's Olivet discourse do not point to Rome. They point directly to Jerusalem.

The majority of Christian brethren that read this Forum well know that the coming Antichrist/pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem MUST be of Jewish origin, and NOT a pope, nor ANY leader from the E.U. The orthodox Jews would NEVER accept a 'foreigner' as their Messiah, period, end of story!

Orthodox Jews bowing down in worship to a pope, or any Gentile?!? It's ridiculous!

Salty, certainly Jerusalem is a central element.   But Jerusalem is not the fourth empire which the little horn person will come out of.        

Well, I am in total agreement that the Antichrist cannot be anything else but a Jew.      For that reason the little horn person must be a Jew.    A Jew in Judaism is someone who's mother is a Jew.        The little horn will be a jew .... but will also be descended from the Julio-Claudian line of Caesars.        Although that information may never surface.    

We have to look at is where the person starts out - which is the leader EU.     After Gog/Magog, it is then that the Jews will think that he is their messiah and will be instrumental in either building a temple of sorts or completing it, so the animal sacrifices can begin again.

The EU is not in the ten leader form yet.    But that will come shortly.     That's one of the things to watch for.

The Pope is certainly not qualified to become the Antichrist.     So we can scratch the historist view.

The other issue we have is what about the person who is currently in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17:8a.    Who is that person?    That is where I think the passages referring to the "Assyrian" indicate who.      It is a good chance that the person was when he was alive - Nimrod.      Of course, that would necessitate that Nimrod have some Nephilim gene in him.     Currently in unclean spirit form, disembodied; Nimrod the Assyrian will enter the person once the person comes back alive from being mortally wounded in Revelation 13.... that is possess him.

Here is a copy and paste of a post I made at another site that pretty much explains why I think the little horn will be the Antichrist, then the revealed man of sin, then the beast.....

It is the same person because of the time frames and characteristics in the end times bible passages are consistent as the person progresses between the different roles found in the different passages.

1. the prince who shall come confirms the covenant for seven years. Daniel 9:26-27.

2. the leader(s) of Israel are responsible to confirm the covenant per Deuteronomy 31:9-13 for seven years.

3. the human leader of Israel is the man-King of Israel, 1Samuel10:19

the prince who shall come is anointed the King of Israel, and is given a crown, the rider on the white horse, Revelation 6:2, Jesus the true King of Israel riding a white horse in Revelation 19:11

4. in the middle of the seven years, the person violates the covenant. Daniel 9:27, stopping the daily sacrifice.

5. the little horn in Daniel 8 violates the covenant by committing the transgression desolation. Daniel 8:12-13. stopping the daily sacrifice.

6. the revealed man of sin in sits in the temple of God claiming to be God - the transgression of desolation. 2Thessalonians2:4

7. the little horn in Daniel 8:25 magnifies himself in his heart

8. the prince of Tyre (code name for the person) magnifies himself in his heart, Ezekiel 28:6, sits in the seat of God, Ezekiel 28:2, claiming to be God. God has him killed. Brings him, the terrible of the nations, down to the pit, Ezekiel 28:7, Isaiah 14:16. The little horn person is killed, for the transgression of desolation act. The head on the beast in Revelation 13:3 is mortally wounded.

9. once in hell, and taunted, the person is cast out of the grave, Isaiah 14:19-20 because he destroys his people and his land, likened as the abominable branch - Jesus the righteous branch, the person is a Jew and the Antichrist gone bad. God, in disdain for the person, kicks the person out of the grave bringing him back to life. The recovered head on the beast in Revelation 13:3. He rules the world for 42 months, the second half of the seven years. Revelation 13:5

10. satan is cast down to earth with a time, times, half times left. Revelation 12:14.

11. satan gives his power to the beast, Revelation 13:2

12. the little horn persecutes the saints for a time, times, half times Daniel 7:25 - possessed by the unclean spirit ascending out of the bottomless pit - as the eighth king of the fourth kingdom.

13. until God passes judgement on the possessed little horn person in Daniel 7:26-28 and Revelation 19:20

 

 

 

 

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, Salty said:

Regardless of what you say, GREEK and LATIN are two different languages. And Thayer's does just like Strong's does, i.e., provides other words of how the Greek word harpazo was TRANSLATED TO ENGLISH based on the Bible version, which is the only reason it gives the word rapture as an option in the English.

So like I said - the word 'rapture' is NOT in the Greek New Testament manuscripts! It is an abused word by those on the Pre-trib Rapture theory too, because JUST AS HOW YOU USED IT IN A PREVIOUS POST; you used it by itself which hides the fact that what your pushing is actually a PRE-TRIBULATIONAL rapture, and not just 'a rapture'. So go try and skunk someone else on that, I don't buy your rhetoric.

This is unbelievable.....You really can't grasp that a catching away, snatching away means the Rapture ? What it is, it destroys the 1830's hogwash, and so it is just pushed to the side and we are supposed to pretend that the Rapture doesn't mean a SNATCHING AWAY, even though it does. 

And of course, lets not mention all the verses I provided that prove what HARPAZO MEANS. Covering your eyes up doesn't make things change. 

4 hours ago, Salty said:

No need to try and school me on God's Word or men's traditions on the usage of that Greek word harpazo. I well understand its meaning from the Scripture examples where it appears. Those on the Pre-trib Rapture theory do not... understand how it is meant in 1 Thess.4 because they try to separate Paul's "last trump" event in 1 Cor.15 from it. And there are many other additions to Scripture that Pre-trib Rapture theory does which is why I will never, ever... accept it. It is a doctrine from men, and not God.

 

Evidently you don't understand it, because I just schooled you, and the facts are the facts.  NO RAPTURE before Daniels 70th Week. SMH.

3 hours ago, Salty said:

You're Jewish, aren't you? Sounds like it with that kind of false hope for orthodox Jews in Israel. No, the nation of Israel will NOT accept Christ Jesus prior to the placing of the "abomination of desolation" at the midpoint of Daniel's final "one week" of Dan.9:27. They are going to accept the coming pseudo-Christ as Messiah, as many Christian Churches will also, the majority of the whole world for that matter.

 

Me a Jew ? LOL.........No, but why would you even ask ? WOW........It's called scriptures, its a good thing. The Scriptures say that Israel is turned back to God before the Day of the lord, are the scriptures lying to us ?  NO WHERE does scriptures say the Jews accept the Anti-Christ.

4 hours ago, Salty said:

So just like how you've got the time of Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of the Church wrong, you've also got the events and timing of that Malachi 4 and Zech.12 Scripture wrong. Did Jerusalem listen to John the Baptist in the role of Elijah? No, Herod even had his head cut off. You need to look at Rev.11 again about God's two witnesses in Jerusalem for the end, and how the people there REJOICE over their dead bodies laying in the street!

To show how you've got the timing for Zech.12:10 wrong, all one need do is look at the Zech.12:9 verse which is about Armageddon when the armies out of the northern quarters come upon Jerusalem, which is when Jesus comes to gather His Church and the deceived orthodox Jews then see Him and mourn for Him, because they realize they had rejected Him. Even in His Olivet discourse He showed that:

The Day of the LORD is mentioned 33 times in the bible, and everywhere they are listed it means Gods Wrath, not JOHN THE BAPTISTS time. Zechariah shows that Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah, and then God pours out His spirit on them, in Zech. 13:1 it shows a Fountain being opened to the house of David (Jesus Blood/Holy Spirit). Israel flees for 1260 Days and is protected by God, in Rev. 12, now you tell me what 1260 Days is if its not the HALF WAY POINT !! So Israel has to accept Jesus as their Messiah before the Abomination of Desolation. Its not debatable, but then again.....................

As per Zech. 12:10, this is why people, imho, just don't get scriptures, it is VERY EVIDENT when God Destroys those nations will be destroyed, by reading Zechariah chapter 14, when Jesus lands on Mt. Zion. In Rev. 12:9 it is repeating IN THAT DAY for about the 5th time, it is referring to that DAY when Jesus comes back........IN THAT DAY..........Zech. 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.  { WHEN JESUS SHOWS UP.......And when is that ? }

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 12:9 IS NOT when Jesus destroys the Nations, that happens in Zechariah 14:1.......on.

5 hours ago, Salty said:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

That includes the orthodox Jews in the nation of Israel that will do that mourning for Christ Jesus when He returns, and that's the timing of that Zech.12:10 Scripture.

IMMEDIATELY AFTER................So ? The Church that was Raptured, comes back IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation, with Jesus, just like Rev. 19 says. Why do all you post-tribbies keep posting this as if it is a magic verse ? The ELECT are GATHERED FROM Heaven.

 

5 hours ago, Salty said:

Give up that rhetoric, no one is listening.

 

That is evident..................Daniel calls them BEASTS........You want it to be KINGS.........But it is speaking about the OTHER BEASTS, just like Daniel says. Better watch changing Gods word. IT SAYS BEASTS not KINGS.

5 hours ago, Salty said:

You need to read Rev.12 more carefully. It doesn't show the "woman" after verse 5 is the nation of Israel, but instead as Christ's Church:

Rev 12:6
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
KJV

Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

That's not about unbelieving Israel. It's about Christ's Church, of both BELIEVING Israelite and Gentile.

And that Rev.12:17 verse shows Christ's Church will be HERE on earth for that "dragon" to make war with as also written in Dan.7:21 and Rev.13:7.

 

I am starting to understand this is probably a hopeless situation.  REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY ALSO. Wow.

5 hours ago, Salty said:

Because of how God uses the word "beast" to apply to both a pagan kingdom and a pagan king over it, like in Rev.13 & 17 especially, then that idea must be understood when reading the Book of Daniel also. Christ's Revelation was given to His Church to reveal many things previously written in the OT prophets too, and not just things written in the NT.

You don't fool me. Based on what you've revealed about yourself coming from that false doctrine that the orthodox Jews in the nation of Israel are going to turn to Jesus Christ prior to the great tribulation is simply a load of bull! It is definitely not Biblical!

You may fool some, but not me! You sound like you're on an agenda to support orthodox Jewry (the "Jews' religion" per Apostle Paul) that had Christ crucified!

Tell me WHY the orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering materials to build another temple in Jerusalem and start up the old covenant style worship with animal sacrifices and the Levitical priesthood, etc.???

I am sensing an Anti Jewish sentiment. You are so smart you even have me pegged as a Jew, even though I am not. LOL.

You don't study what other say, I DO, if you did, you wouldn't be confused in your replies. I have said, COUNTLESS TIMES, that the Jewish people rebuild the Temple, the Rapture happens at about that time, before or after a smidgen, then after they start up the sacrifices, and BEFORE the Abomination of Desolation, Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah, and the the MAN IF SIN/Anti-Christ double crosses them and invades. YOU CATCH ALL THAT THIS TIME ? 

I actually read your every post.............Even if I do disagree, I can respect anyone's opinion, as long as they are not closing their eyes to facts, which then kind of makes my shake my head. 

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

i hear what you are saying, Salty.    He says Rome, the EU, but for all the wrong reasons.    And Revelation Man does not believe that the person who becomes the beast is ever the King of Israel at some point - whereas I do.

What I am most objective to is his interpretation of the seven kings - as being kingdoms, and beasts.    And his claims that the mountains - represented by the seven heads - that those mountains represent kings.     It is really convoluted - which he does it to work Assyria and Egypt into the picture.    Which I say to him that Assyria and Egypt have nothing to do with Daniel 7 or the Revelation Beast.     In Revelation, it is about the fourth emprie that the little horn person comes out of.

So all I have to do is work on the Seven Kings portion to get you to see my point hey ? WILL DO some research. I don't believe he is the King of Israel because he bible never says he is. And the bibles says God protects Israel in the Wilderness for 1260 Days, the exact time the Anti-Christ is given power of Jerusalem. Elijah turns Israel back to God before the Day of the Lord, which means Israel HAS TO TURN TO GOD BEFORE the Abomination of Desolation. HAS TO. I used to think the same way you do, its not convoluted, I go inch by inch with scriptures. 

Instead of having this IDEA, try making everything FIT, that is how I do it. Is there any way that Israel can accept the Man of Sin/Little Horn as their "King" before they flee to the Wilderness for 1260 Days ? NO....A covenant is not a HOLY COVENANT per se just because its called a Covenant, but its just an Agreement. IF........This Anti-Christ was "ISRAELS KING" by Acceptance, WHY WOULD HE HAVE TO INVADE THEM ? And conquer them ? After all, he was already seen by Israel (according to you all) as THEIR KING, so why conquer Israel ? Why Invade them ? They are already calling him the Messiah so WHY ARE THEY IN SHOCK  ?

Because they DON'T ACCEPT HIM AS THE MESSIAH.......It is the only answer brother. This is how I figure stuff out. You have to reason everything out. YOU SEE, IMHO, the fact that you think this Anti-Christ is going to be Israels King, takes such precedence with you, that everything else has to fit accordingly. Walk it through, clear your mind, and walk it through. 

I changed a lot of my opinions once I started studying this intently for the last 3 years.

[douggg]

57 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

So all I have to do is work on the Seven Kings portion to get you to see my point hey ?

It would be a tremedous help, imo.

 

57 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

WILL DO some research. I don't believe he is the King of Israel because he bible never says he is.

Well, being the King of Israel is separate from being king 7 of the 7 kings, and then later as king 8.    The King of Israel is not any of the 7 kings in Revelation 17.    Those 7 kings are kings of the Roman Empire.

It is this simple....

1. Julius Caesar

2. Augustus Caesar

3. Tiberius

4. Caligula

5. Claudius

6.  Nero.

7.  The end times little horn, 7th Julio-Claudian King.    Leader of the EU.    Gog/Magog become imminent.    He stages his EU army in Greece as a deterent.

    a. the person is the prince who shall come following Gog/Magog and is thought by the Jews to be their messiah.   And he is anointed the King of Israel becoming the Antichrist.  

    b. three years, three months after being their king, he betrays them,  stops the daily sacrifice, claims to be God... becoming the revealed man of sin.   The Jews disown him as continuing as their King of Israel.    Ending his time as the Antichrist.

    c. God has the person killed.  and in disdain for him, brings him back to life.    Come back to life the person will be possessed by the unclean spirit ascending out of the bottomless pit - making him the beast of Revelation 13.

8. Possessed, the come back to life person, disowned by the Jews already, is embraced by the ten kings as being God, and they pledge their EU Kingdom to him, making him the 8th Julio-Claudian king of the Roman Empire.

 

Note: whether the person wears two hats for awhile - that of being the leader of Europe and the King of Israel is not known.     But while he is in the role of being the King of Israel - he is the Antichrist for that time.     Otherwise, he is not the Antichrist - but some other role, the revealed man of sin, the beast, the little horn.

 

 

 

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

And the bibles says God protects Israel in the Wilderness for 1260 Days, the exact time the Anti-Christ is given power of Jerusalem. Elijah turns Israel back to God before the Day of the Lord, which means Israel HAS TO TURN TO GOD BEFORE the Abomination of Desolation. HAS TO. I used to think the same way you do, its not convoluted, I go inch by inch with scriptures. 

Israel has to be preached to by the two witnesses to flee when they see the Abomination of Desolation setup to be worshipped - yes.

Keep in mind, that the 70th week starts when the person confirms the covenant for 7 years.   Thought to be their messiah, he will do just that - by overseeing the reading of the law of Moses to the nation from the temple mount.      That is a requirement in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 to be done for a 7 years cycle, repeated over and over.

So the 7 years begin, and the two witnesses are preaching don't trust the guy, he is not the real messiah, he is going to betray you Israel.     So about 3 years, 3 months into the 7 years, into being the King of Israel, and the Jews thinking peace and safety at last -  he suddenly betrays them.    And shorty thereafter betraying them, on day 1185 (2520-1335) , the Abomination of Desolation will be setup to be worshiped - and the Jews begin to flee.

So by the time the 1260 days end, a big portion (assumed) of the Jews have fled and are in the wilderness.    Before the beast overcomes the two witnesses and they are killed.