Babylon, the Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast Explained.

[douggg]

14 hours ago, Salty said:

The "seven heads" is part of the 1st beast of Rev.13:1-2 which has ten horns and ten crowns, meaning it is a system, a kingdom beast. That's why Rev.13:2 references the beast kingdoms of Daniel 7.

In Daniel 7 the four beasts are also 4 kings.     The first beast in Revelation 13:1-2 does represent a kingdom - the fourth kingdom.    But the beast also represent the King of that kingdom - the 7th who must continue a short space - the 42 months in Revelation 13:5.

17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 

14 hours ago, Salty said:

A Reformer would say it was the Roman empire who suffered a dead wound that is healed for the end. I say it is the old beast kingdom of Rev.12:3-4 which Satan the dragon rebelled against God with of old, when he drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him. That old ten horn, seven head beast system is healed for the very end, except it will have "ten crowns" instead of "seven crowns" like it had of old. If one doesn't understand this, then they probably wouldn't understand how Ezekiel 31 can points to nations under the one there that was in God's Garden of Eden, which has to mean a time prior to Adam and Even.

Well, if a reformer thought that - the reformer would be wrong.        The ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13 because the ten horns (ten kings) rule with the beast in that last 42 months in Revelation 13.       They pledge their kingdom to the beast.

In Revelation 12, it is the heads (the seven kings) that have their crowns because Revelation 12 is with the full seven years ahead of it - and king #7 has come to power, but he is not the beast at that point, fulfilling the prophecy of the 7 kings of Revelation 17:10.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

7 Kingdoms of Satan's beast .... 5 have fallen and 2 remain

There is no king without a kingdom .... to think otherwise is an absurdity

The 7 "heads" are the beast's assigned kingdoms .... all Middle Eastern, past and future

All of these 7 human kingdoms have had and will have human king "positions" .... some of the past had more than one king [a succession of kings] .... anyone who has knowledge of the historical record knows this

The beast's 7th and final kingdom will incorporate the little horn, a king of the northern Middle East seen in Daniel's visions, and 10 other kings who will rule with the little horn

Attempting to place the ancient Roman Empire in the scope of the visions which is not there will lead into nothing but confusion .... reformation interpretations are all bogus

Edited January 15, 2017 by Daniel 11:36

[Salty]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

In Daniel 7 the four beasts are also 4 kings.     The first beast in Revelation 13:1-2 does represent a kingdom - the fourth kingdom.    But the beast also represent the King of that kingdom - the 7th who must continue a short space - the 42 months in Revelation 13:5.

17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Actually, in Daniel 7 the subject begins with his seeing four great beasts that come up out of the sea, each one being compared to an animal. Those are kingdoms like the one in Rev.13:1-2 that comes out of the sea. Even the idea of the ten horns (ten kings) is about the beast kingdom idea.

But I agree the "little horn" is about a beast king, the one defined in the Rev.17:8-10 Scripture. Yet Rev.17 is covering both, the beast kingdom idea, and the beast king idea, so one must learn to keep those separate in that Chapter, and likewise in Daniel 7.

 

1 hour ago, douggg said:

 

Well, if a reformer thought that - the reformer would be wrong.        The ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13 because the ten horns (ten kings) rule with the beast in that last 42 months in Revelation 13.       They pledge their kingdom to the beast.

In Revelation 12, it is the heads (the seven kings) that have their crowns because Revelation 12 is with the full seven years ahead of it - and king #7 has come to power, but he is not the beast at that point, fulfilling the prophecy of the 7 kings of Revelation 17:10.

 

I recognize the subject of the seven heads in Rev.17:9 being a different subject than the kings of Rev.17:10.

The seven heads we are told are seven mountains, not kings. I see the seven mountains as seven geographical areas on earth where 7 powers are setup. Recall per the Book of Daniel when the "little horn" comes up he will subdue 3 of the 1o kings. That leaves 7 kings. I believe the seven kings will rule over those seven mountains areas on the earth, and the 3 subdued kings will be over a triparte division of the earth. Those 3 subdued kings still rule with the beast king evidently, because Rev.17:12 verse says all ten receive power with the beast king for one hour, the "one hour" symbolizing the tribulation time.

(Mind you, the above has nothing to do with the idea of the 7 kings of Rev.17:10, of which John said 5 of them were already past history, and one still existed in his day, with the 7th yet to come.)

 

[Daniel 11:36]

"The seven heads we are told are seven mountains, not kings. I see the seven mountains as seven geographical areas on earth where 7 powers are setup."

 

The 7 "mountains" are 7 kingdoms that exist over time .... 5 have fallen, and 2 are still pending

These human kingdoms are sequential, one after the other over time ..... and not existing at the same time as you are possibly implying

The 6th and 7th kingdoms are still pending .... the 6th smaller kingdom of the horn little horn and the 7th expanded/divided of the same

Kingdoms are described as wild beasts in Daniel's visions and Revelation's revealing, but "the beast" who rules over all of them is a fallen angel adventured by Satan

One must first understand this truth, otherwise nothing but confusion has and will be generated

The symbolic "mountain" is a kingdom in prophetic scripture, even the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth is described as a mountain that will fill the whole earth

And so are the 7 human kingdoms ruled over by Satan's beast

Every kingdom must have a king .... the region over which the king rules

There are 7 kingdoms in the scope of the visions and all of them must have a king "position"

The Lord's coming millennial kingdom will replace the 7 human kingdoms which He will rule over Himself

On the other hand, Satan's beast rules over all 7 of the human kingdoms over time, and when he fully possesses the human little horn [who will rule both the 6th and the 7th], the beast will become the 8th king himself [Revelation 9:1; 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:9-13]

This is not hard to understand, but there are many who have been taught preconceptions that stand in the way

[douggg]

8 hours ago, Salty said:

The seven heads we are told are seven mountains, not kings. I see the seven mountains as seven geographical areas on earth where 7 powers are setup. Recall per the Book of Daniel when the "little horn" comes up he will subdue 3 of the 1o kings. That leaves 7 kings. I believe the seven kings will rule over those seven mountains areas on the earth, and the 3 subdued kings will be over a triparte division of the earth. Those 3 subdued kings still rule with the beast king evidently, because Rev.17:12 verse says all ten receive power with the beast king for one hour, the "one hour" symbolizing the tribulation time.

Salty, the 10 kings in Daniel 7 are of the fourth kingdom.    The little horn is of the fourth kingdom.    

In Revelation 17, the beast is the fourth kingdom, and in Revelation 13, the beast is the fourth kingdom (also the king of it).   

 The seven heads are seven mountains where the woman sits.    The woman is not seven powers.     You are getting everything confused.    The woman sits in a place that has seven mountains.        

She also sits on many waters - which that is defined in the text as  15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

And the woman must be something that the ten kings can destroy with fire.

I am pretty sure that is the RCC with it's headquarters the Vatican in Rome.

 

 

 

 

[douggg]

2 hours ago, eileenhat said:

Re: The use of the word 'star' in reference to angels.

I can answer this question (but I am fine if rebuked later for it) because God revealed to me in a vision some time back what an angel looks like....they look like millions bright lights flashing outwards.  So, they look like a sun as we imagined a sun to look like.

So a 'not capable of the human eye as perceiving' bright light.

I put this vision into what little I learned studying science etc.  And what God was perceived like by Moses and we can begin to float a theory that the spiritual realm, ie. Heaven, is at a different 'much higher' frequency level.  ....just what little I can come with to explain this revelation.

eileenhat, I have never seen an angel, knowingly.    From what I have read in the bible is that they can take on different degrees of glorified state, from human like appearance to supernatural frightening powerful beings.

[Salty]

3 hours ago, douggg said:

Salty, the 10 kings in Daniel 7 are of the fourth kingdom.    The little horn is of the fourth kingdom.    

In Revelation 17, the beast is the fourth kingdom, and in Revelation 13, the beast is the fourth kingdom (also the king of it).

I agree the 10 kings (ten toes) are about the 4th beast in Dan.7, and that the "little horn" also is of that 4th beast per Dan.7.

I also agree that the beast kingdom and beast king of Rev.13 is the 4th beast of Daniel 7, and also about the 7th king of Rev.17:10 that must continue "a short space".

 

3 hours ago, douggg said:

 

 The seven heads are seven mountains where the woman sits.    The woman is not seven powers.     You are getting everything confused.    The woman sits in a place that has seven mountains.        

She also sits on many waters - which that is defined in the text as  15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

And the woman must be something that the ten kings can destroy with fire.

I am pretty sure that is the RCC with it's headquarters the Vatican in Rome.

Rev 17:1
... I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
KJV

Per Rev.17:15 those "waters" the great whore sits upon represent peoples, multitudes, tongues, and nations, meaning geographical areas on earth, so how am I confused on that, because that shows the "seven mountains" are not about the idea of just seven hills? And even if it was about seven hills surrounding a city like Rome, that definition was applied to old Jerusalem back in its history too.

Per Rev.17:18 the "woman" is a "great city". Per Rev.17:8 Jerusalem is referenced as the "great city" where God's two witnesses are killed with their dead bodies being left in the street, and it is where the beast ascends out of the bottomless pit to kill them.

In 2 Thess.2:3-4, Apostle Paul showed the coming Antichrist will exalt himself in the "temple of God" which is a direct reference to a standing temple in Jerusalem. Paul showed that false one will work great signs and lying wonders to deceive. In Matthew 24:23-26 Jesus showed us about a coming pseudo-Christ ("false Christs" actually is Greek pseudochristos in the NT manuscripts) to Jerusalem for the end, working great signs and wonders that if possible would deceive even His very elect.

In Rev.13:11, John is shown a second beast, an entity, appearing with two horns like a lamb (symbolic of Christ), but speaks as a dragon (Satan). He is to rain fire down from heaven in the sight of men, and work great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world.

So no, I cannot buy that the coming Antichrist is about a pope or the RCC. That was an old Protestant belief. (My ancestors were French huguenots, the first Protestants in France which the old RCC had war against).

 

[douggg]

1 minute ago, Salty said:

Per Rev.17:15 those "waters" the great whore sits upon represent peoples, multitudes, tongues, and nations, meaning geographical areas on earth, so how am I confused on that, because that shows the "seven mountains" are not about the idea of just seven hills? And even if it was about seven hills surrounding a city like Rome, that definition was applied to old Jerusalem back in its history too.

Because it is defining the waters as representing something other than literal waters.   Whereas the mountains, it does not.   It is just seven mountains, or hills.    The text doesn't elaborate that the mountains represent anything.

[douggg]

4 minutes ago, Salty said:

So no, I cannot buy that the coming Antichrist is about a pope or the RCC. That was an old Protestant belief. (My ancestors were French huguenots, the first Protestants in France which the old RCC had war against).

Of course the person who becomes the Antichrist is not the Pope.    The pope is not even qualified to become the Antichrist.    And on top of that why would the Pope's ten kings destroy the Pope's base of operations and organization - the Vatican?

That the Vatican will be destroyed is not implying that the Pope will be the Antichrist person.

 

[Salty]

Just now, douggg said:

Because it is defining the waters as representing something other than literal waters.   Whereas the mountains, it does not.   It is just seven mountains, or hills.    The text doesn't elaborate that the mountains represent anything.

But what of all those other direct pointers to Jerusalem that I mentioned? One cannot substantiate that it's Rome with just the phrase "seven heads" or "seven mountains", and here's another reason why that is so:

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

That event of verse 4, about the third of stars (angels) being drawn to the earth by that dragon (Satan) sets the time of that beast of "seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns". That is NOT about the latter day beast kingdom, nor any other time except the time of Satan's original rebellion of old per Isaiah 14. That beast had only "seven crowns" if you'll note. The one in Rev.13 for the end is to have ten crowns. Yet, there that "seven heads" is with that old beast system that Satan originally rebelled with! So did that mean seven hills of Rome back then of old when Satan first rebelled? No, of course not. So that is another reason why we can't just arbitrarily assign the idea of 'seven hills' around city in place of our Lord Jesus' definition of "seven mountains" in Rev.17.