The Holy Trinity?

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, brakelite said:

Why? Because the trinity as expressed in the creeds, denies the Father as being the ONLY TRUE GOD.

No, the Trinity as expressed in the "creeds"   is that there is one God, but three Persons.   That is the mystery.  One God, but that one God is also three distinct Persons.

[JohnD]

Okay. When passages are not taken out of the context of the Bible and stitched together, the Trinity is the only explanation that is in concert with the entire Bible.

Beginning with your first point: 

There is one God the Father AND one LORD (Kurios in a number of places in the Greek quoting the Tanakh YHVH = the LORD Yahweh / Jehovah).

You already have a problem since the Old Testament / Tanakh states over and over that YHVH / The LORD IS the one God.  Exodus 3:13-15. You quoted the shema (Deuteronomy 6:14) the LORD / YHVH our is one (ekhad)... that same ekhad / one troubled RAMBAM enough to try to substituted "Yakhid" in its place because ekhad is the same one used in:

Genesis 2:24 (AV)
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be → one ← flesh.

Your point number two:

John 17:3 (AV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Clearly Jesus is God incarnate (which goes also to the flaw in your point number 1) John 1:1-3, John 1:14, Colossians 1:13-16 ← clarified by Isaiah 44:24 that it was he alone who created all things in the beginning and that it was the Redeemer not the One the redemption price was paid to (the Father).

Jesus is the one in the Godhead whom man dealt with all along (John 8:58, Exodus 3:13-15).

Mankind did not even know there was a Father. So John 17:3 is about believers in him (Jesus) knowing the Father who is only Spirit and Jesus Christ who is also flesh and bone (the incarnation).

1 John 2:13 (AV)
13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

 1 John 2:13 confirms this.

Does everyone see how taking things out of biblical context is precisely the evil the devil used to get us into this evil mess we call life?

Evil quotes a verse here and a passage there out of context and appeals to human reason and more evil is hatched.

[JohnD]

I am on record about being against anything (creeds included) that is of extra biblical origin that conflicts with scripture.

The so-called apostle's creed is flawed from creed 1 in that God the Word (who became the Son in the incarnation) alone created all things in the beginning Isaiah 44:24, John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-16.

Creeds, denominational platforms, liturgy, Church traditions, etc. are no substitute for Holy Spirit led Bible study. But that's precisely what they become. People are lazy, uninterested, want to lead worldly lives rather than getting to know their God.

So along comes a johnny-come-lately armed with cultic teaching from the pit of hell who thinks they know it all and they spew their satanic bile all over the landscape using the same human, extra biblical arguments that duped them on others who have not studied the Bible with its Author (the Holy Spirit) as their tutor.

[JohnD]

Jesus called the Father his God.

Jesus the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45) called the Father God because the Father created his body for the incarnation (Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 1:5, John 1:14b).

God incarnate (John 1:1-2, 1 John 1:1-2) submitted to God the Father as his God to meet the messianic requirements that he himself established in Torah the Law. He is our kinsman redeemer. We cannot be saved by a messiah who is his own God because we cannot be our own God.

And if, Brakelite, God calling another God disqualifies him as God then observe what the Father calls the SOn:

Hebrews 1:8 (AV)
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

2 Peter 1:20–21 (AV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The entire Bible came by this process. The entire Bible is  not up for private interpretation. Like a holograph can only be properly seen when illuminated by the laser light that created it, so the Holy Scriptures can only be illuminated by the God who wrote it. 

BTW the Holy Spirit is also the one God.

Acts 5:3-4, Acts 13:2... etc.

 

[other one]

the problem you guys are having is in what the word "God/god" really means.   We have attached a meaning that neither the Hebrew or the Greek  has.

[JohnD]

Another Bible passage cultists use to argue against the Trinity is:

John 14:8–9 (AV)
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Clearly Jesus was pointing out Philip did not know what he was saying. Everyone can agree on this point. The point he was clarifying is his representation of the Father is to say

John 14:7 (AV)
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

The distinction between the two is clear as is the representation Jesus emphasized for Philip and all who reads this verse. Jesus was not claiming to be the Father but to represent him.

 

 

 

 

[brakelite]

On 30/01/2017 at 10:14 PM, JohnD said:

I am on record about being against anything (creeds included) that is of extra biblical origin that conflicts with scripture.

 

That's great, and exactly as it should be for all of us. So when Jesus declares His Father as the only true God (John 17:3), informs Mary not to touch Him yet because He has not yet risen to His Father, His God, (John 20:17), and then from heaven declares to the church of Philadelphia that the Father He is referring to is still His own God, (Rev. 3:12), why do you go to extra Biblical origin as introduced to the church by the Gnostic trained Athanasius and teach a three in one God?

 

On 30/01/2017 at 10:29 PM, JohnD said:

And if, Brakelite, God calling another God disqualifies him as God then observe what the Father calls the SOn:

Don't presume to know what I believe concerning the deity of the Son until you have read other posts of mine elsewhere on the subject. What I am asking in my last post was for people to simply deal with the indisputable fact that Jesus declared the Father as the only true God...His God...even after His ascension. Once we can settle on that without qualifying it, then we can move on to who Jesus is.

 

On 30/01/2017 at 10:14 PM, JohnD said:

So along comes a johnny-come-lately armed with cultic teaching from the pit of hell who thinks they know it all and they spew their satanic bile all over the landscape using the same human, extra biblical arguments that duped them on others who have not studied the Bible with its Author (the Holy Spirit) as their tutor.

Fairly heavy stuff here. Sounds similar to the kind of trash talk the Pharisees shot at their own God walking among them. My last question on my last post was "why"...why do we speak and teach of a trinity when the Bible, upon which we claim we base our faith, clearly states that only the Father is the true God?

Here are some more texts showing this....

John 5:18  Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Was Jesus claiming a trinity as His Father?

1 Corinthians 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
When this age of sin is finished, and all things are once more in harmony with righteousness, Jesus the Son gives all things once more into the hand of "God, even the Father". He does not hand it to a trinity...to describe the trinity as God makes no sense...to describe the Father as God, and Him alone, harmonizes with all scripture.

Ephesians 1:2  Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
2 Corinthians 11:31  The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Colossians 1:3  We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you.

On 30/01/2017 at 10:02 PM, JohnD said:

Okay. When passages are not taken out of the context of the Bible and stitched together, the Trinity is the only explanation that is in concert with the entire Bible.

If this is so, then why is it called a "mystery". Mysteries cannot be offered as an explanation for anything. This is as empty as cosmologists declaring that their invention, dark matter, for which they have no definitive information or evidence, is the "mysterious" reason galaxies don't fly apart.

A literal Father and Son, operating in concert and love with each other and those who love and know them, is the only explanation in concert with the entire Bible. A metaphorical Father and a metaphorical Son is the only way a trinity can be justified. But a metaphorical Father did not send a metaphorical Son into the world to redeem man. (John 3:16; 1 John 4:9,10; ) If the trinity is true, and the Son the same age as the Father, thus they both only playing the roles of father and son, then the entire story of Abraham and Isaac becomes meaningless. The offering and dedication of the firstborn becomes meaningless. John 3:16 becomes meaningless. When the Bible says God sent His Son into the world to save sinners, then I believe He had a Son to send.

[Guest]

I believe that the trinity are the three aspects of God. Not three separate persons.

One aspect is God the father, creator, our deity.

The second aspect of God is the word. The word is truth. God is always the truth.

The third aspect of God is the spirit. God's spirit convicts us, lives in us and teaches us.

[brakelite]

On 1/02/2017 at 5:50 AM, JaniceR said:

I believe that the trinity are the three aspects of God. Not three separate persons.

One aspect is God the father, creator, our deity.

The second aspect of God is the word. The word is truth. God is always the truth.

The third aspect of God is the spirit. God's spirit convicts us, lives in us and teaches us.

The Father you must admit is a person yes? He has a personality, right?And would that not go for Jesus, the Son, also? Remember, the Bible doesn't actually state there is a trinity. It says Godhead...not necessarily the same. 1 John 1:3  That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. So do two people fit into your idea of a 'trinity', and perhaps  the third "aspect" you refer to is the Spirit they both share...God IS Spirit, and  "for he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him". John 3:34

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, brakelite said:

The Father you must admit is a person yes? He has a personality, right?And would that not go for Jesus, the Son, also? Remember, the Bible doesn't actually state there is a trinity. It says Godhead...not necessarily the same. 1 John 1:3  That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. So do two people fit into your idea of a 'trinity', and perhaps  the third "aspect" you refer to is the Spirit they both share...God IS Spirit, and  "for he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him". John 3:34

 

No, the trinity (not a biblical term) is what I described...the three aspects of God.

As Christ told us over and over, he is the Son of God. God sent him, as your verses show.