1Thes.4 = Day of the Lord

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, OneLight said:

Yet, they are rolled out in a specific manner/timing.  The 7 Trumpets were not introduced in scripture until the 7th Seal was opened, so it is impossible for this concurrence to happen.

Revelation 8:1-2

When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

Well sure. It would be next to impossible to introduce any two things at the same time space moment. Can't write chapter 1 and chapter 2 at the same time, one necessarily follows the other. At the same time the events of the chapters can and many times are concurrent.

Novels are written this way. When the story is moving toward climax the characters are all moving toward that climax concurrently. 

What in the words, "And I saw...." lead you to conclude 'following this?

The words are timeless and orderless. "And I saw...." does not designate a consecutive march. Most only feel this way because "And I saw..." follows the silence in heaven.

To be sure the end of the acts of opening the seals cause the narrative to return to an introduction of a not previously identified set of events, and that's all. From this we cannot, not should not, but cannot, conclude either consecutive or concurrent, only time neutral.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

"If the wrath is existing and has arrived as the terms suggest, then the wrath must occur at the 6th seal and the 7th Trump, as written. "  There is another alternative: His wrath begins at the 6th seal, time moves on through the trumpets and at the 7th trumpet His wrath is mentioned again. We could say it is "continuing on." But then the chronology falls apart. This does not in any way have to mean that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet are concurrent. My point is, they cannot possibly be concurrent. It's possible. You believe it's improbable. The events of the 6th seal could all be accomplished and finished in a month's time - perhaps even less. Surely 42 MONTHS go by or  3 1/2 years before the 7th trumpet is sounded. Could be. But maybe more like 6 to 6 1/2 years. Nothing restricts the 7's to one half of the week or the other. Why is it that the seals cannot be opened all at once and the events of the seals simply occur? Why not view the unrolling of the scroll as an overview? Meaning, the seals are not broken over time and the event of the seal occurs only then, but all broken at once and then events occur in their natural course. 

Sorry, but it seems the NOW thing to do to rearrange Revelation to fit a theory! So many feel the need to do it. I neither think it is wise or necessary. If you are not rearranging, please accept my apologies.  However, if you think the 6th seal and 7th trumpet are concurrent, then I would have to say you mistaken, if not rearranging.

If the 4th seal of the scroll is broken, then all  events, no matter what they are can occur.  I could not disagree more! Only those events written to take place at the opening of this seal will take place. The scroll still cannot be unrolled to reveal the trumpets and what follows. The only other thing that can happen is the opening of the next seal. Perhaps. But as John showed all the seals were broken and the scroll fully unrolled.

When John saw the 7 angels with the trumps it does not mean they magically rose from the 7th seal.   Some people - even commentators - say that the 7th seal "contains" the 7 trumpets. I don't ever say that. I would say that the opening of the 7th seal will make possible the sounding of the trumpets. I have heard that as well. I don't pay attention to commentators.

John used similar words many times: " and I saw" or "I heard." Some times he would write "after this" or after these things." But in any case, John is making or creating a chronology from the visions.  I don't think He needs to say "then:" it is supposed since it is the next thing he mentions. If they were not consecutive, I think John would tell us. The language is precise. Since there exists the language where chronology is specified, we cannot read chronology into a place where it is not specified. It may be the events are chronological but if not stated we would need more information to prove it and not just personal belief. You are right, it is only 'supposed', not specified. God is perfect and the language is precise.

If you wish to rely on the exactness of the text, i would think then you would take the text AS WRITTEN and not attempt to rearrange it.  Sorry, but the way John wrote of the seals, I see TIME movement. And after the movement of time, another seals is broken or opened.  For your side of this discussion, I think the first 5 seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended into heaven after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. The first seal was to represent the church sent out, then the next 3 to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. And the 5th seal, for the church age martyrs. Saul was going to be sending some very soon, And Stephen was probably part of that group John saw.

However, the 6th seal is still in our future.  When John saw the 6th seal being opened in this vision, he was then seeing future events. I would then include the opening of the 6th seal to be just as future as the events of the 6th seal.

Perhaps. But as John showed all the seals were broken and the scroll fully unrolled.   John was seeing a vision. In a vision time can be past, present or future, or a mix of all three. As I read it, John (with the guidance of the Holy Spirit) started at the beginning of the church age and then covered the entire church age. We, the church, have been between the 5th and 6th seals all this time, waiting for the last martyr of the church age.

I think it is wise to at lease read commentators: it is the combined knowledge of scripture in our past. In the book of Revelation, however, I seldom agree with any of them. But I do know at least one that tells us the 1st seal is the church with the gospel.

I disagree. I think, just the very fact that it is written in a given chronology is good enough for me to believe that will be the chronology when these things begin to take place.

 

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

28 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Well sure. It would be next to impossible to introduce any two things at the same time space moment. Can't write chapter 1 and chapter 2 at the same time, one necessarily follows the other. At the same time the events of the chapters can and many times are concurrent.

Novels are written this way. When the story is moving toward climax the characters are all moving toward that climax concurrently. 

What in the words, "And I saw...." lead you to conclude 'following this?

The words are timeless and orderless. "And I saw...." does not designate a consecutive march. Most only feel this way because "And I saw..." follows the silence in heaven.

To be sure the end of the acts of opening the seals cause the narrative to return to an introduction of a not previously identified set of events, and that's all. From this we cannot, not should not, but cannot, conclude either consecutive or concurrent, only time neutral.

I don't see it that way. It was shown to John in the very order it was written. I cannot even imagine a reason why God would choose to mix up the events in time. It is suppose to be a revelation, not a confusing. And I find it makes perfect sense in the very order it is written. I don't think the text should be required to say "the next event that will happen in time sequence is...." It is written in a sequence that makes sense. We may disagree on this point until these things happen.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, OneLight said:

Restored Jerusalem     The restored Jerusalem is the restoration during the millennium         Isaiah 54:1-15 1 “Sing, O barren, You who have not borne! Break forth into singing, and cry aloud, You who have not labored with child! For more are the children of the desolate Than the children of the married woman,”   For your Maker is your husband, The LORD of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth. 6 For the LORD has called you Like a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, Like a youthful wife when you were refused," Says your God. 7 "For a mere moment I have forsaken you, But with great mercies I will gather you. 8 With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you," Says the LORD, your Redeemer.         Behold, I will lay your stones with colorful gems, And lay your foundations with sapphires. 12 I will make your pinnacles of rubies, Your gates of crystal, And all your walls of precious stones.   Isaiah 60 :3 The Gentiles [nations] shall come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.   19 "The sun shall no longer be your light by day, Nor for brightness shall the moon give light to you; But the LORD will be to you an everlasting light, And your God your glory. 20 Your sun shall no longer go down, Nor shall your moon withdraw itself; For the LORD will be your everlasting light, And the days of your mourning shall be ended. 21 Also your people shall all be righteous;    Isaiah 62   The Gentiles [nations] shall see your righteousness, And all kings your glory. You shall be called by a new name, Which the mouth of the LORD will name.   Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him.'"   Isaiah 65:17-19 17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; ... 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy

New Jerusalem     The New Jerusalem cones to us after the New Earth and New Heaven, not before the millennium     Revelation 21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”   5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me,[b] “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”   6 And He said to me, “It is done![c] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[d] and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[e] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”   9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me[f] and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”[g]10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy[h] Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.   14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names[i] of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. 18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.   22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,[j] for the glory[k] of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved[l] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.[m]25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.[n]27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes[o] an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Finally! Something you have written that I can agree with! Good job! However, I disagree on your choice of texts on the left side.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

Why would I accept dispensationist commentators? When parallel passages in Revelation found in the OT, drawn directly  from these prophecies, are far too numerous to be coincidence.

No that is an opinion, with no scriptual support, out of the mouth of two or more witnesses.

I havnt rearranged a single thing, John gives details of the fate of the wixked and satan exactly where it needs to be in the scripture, as it is natural for us to want to know what happens to satan and the wicked after the millennium, this ibformation is given for completeness, however John is still staying in context of the Millennium when discussing new heaven and new earth.

Staying in context is not rearrangement.

It is yourself that is taking revelation out of its context, which then carries over a knock on effect and must also rearrange Isaiah.

Yes there is a difference, kainos & neos....which one do you think John used?

Perhaps you should just settle it in your mind, i accept scripture support than mere opinions.

You have no chance in understanding Revelation without Isaiah, and since we on the subject of restored versus new in origion.

New Jerusalem

Gal 4:25-27
25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in
Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem
which now is, and is in bondage with
her children — 26 but the Jerusalem
above is free, which is the mother of us
all. 27 For it is written: “Rejoice, O
barren, You who do not bear! Break
forth and shout, You who are not in
labor! For the desolate has many more
children Than she who has a
husband.”

Restored Jerusalem

Isaiah 54:1-15
1 “Sing, O barren, You who have not
borne! Break forth into singing, and
cry aloud, You who have not labored
with child! For more are the children of
the desolate Than the children of the
married woman,”

New Jerusalem - Rev 21:2-3 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New
Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven
from God, prepared as a bride adorned
for her husband.

Restored Jerusalem

Isaiah 54

For your Maker  

is your husband, The LORD of hosts is  

His name; And your Redeemer is the
Holy One of Israel; He is called the
God of the whole earth. 6 For the
LORD has called you Like a woman
forsaken and grieved in spirit, Like a
youthful wife when you were refused,"
Says your God. 7 "For a mere moment I
have forsaken you, But with great
mercies I will gather you. 8 With a
little wrath I hid My face from you for
a moment; But with everlasting
kindness I will have mercy on you,"
Says the LORD, your Redeemer. 9

 

New Jerusalem- Rev 21:18-21 18 The construction of its wall was of
jasper; and the city was pure gold, like
clear glass. 19 The foundations of the
wall of the city were adorned with all
kinds of precious stones: the first
foundation was jasper, the second
sapphire, the third chalcedony, the
fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx,
the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite,
the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the
tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth,
and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The
twelve gates were twelve pearls: each
individual gate was of one pearl. And
the street of the city was pure gold, like
transparent glass.

 

Restored Jerusalem

Isaiah 54

Behold, I will lay your
stones with colorful gems, And lay
your foundations with sapphires. 12 I
will make your pinnacles of rubies,
Your gates of crystal, And all your
walls of precious stones.

 

New Jerusalem - Rev 21:24  And the nations of those who are
saved shall walk in its light, and the
kings of the earth bring their glory and
honor into it.

 

Restored Jerusalem

Isaiah 60 :3 The Gentiles [nations]
shall come to your light, And kings to
the brightness of your rising.

 

New Jerusalem - Rev 21:23-24 The city had no need of the sun or of
the moon to shine in it, for the glory of
God illuminated it. The Lamb is its
light.

 

Restored Jerusalem

19 "The sun shall no longer be your
light by day, Nor for brightness shall
the moon give light to you; But the
LORD will be to you an everlasting
light, And your God your glory. 20
Your sun shall no longer go down, Nor
shall your moon withdraw itself; For
the LORD will be your everlasting
light, And the days of your mourning
shall be ended. 21 Also your people
shall all be righteous; 

 

New Jerusalem - Rev 21:24 And the nations of those who are
saved shall walk in its light, and the
kings of the earth bring their glory and
honor into it.

 

Restored Jerusalem

Isaiah 62

The Gentiles
[nations] shall see your righteousness,
And all kings your glory. You shall be
called by a new name, Which the
mouth of the LORD will name.

 

New Jerusalem - Rev 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly,
and My reward is with Me, to give to
every one according to his work.

 

Restored Jerusalem

Isaiah 62

Behold, His
reward is with Him, And His work
before Him.'"

 

New Jerusalem - Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new
earth, for the first heaven and the first
earth had passed away. Also there was
no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the
holy city, New Jerusalem, coming
down out of heaven from God,

 

Restored Jerusalem

Isaiah 65:17-19
17 “For behold, I create new heavens
and a new earth; ... 18 But be glad and
rejoice forever in what I create; For
behold, I create Jerusalem as a
rejoicing, And her people a joy

...............................

See its like this, you want to buy a new house, the estate agent takes you to a brand new development with just recently newly built, not rebuilt but completely new development and then tells you that that the houses use to be crack houses.....completely illogical for something that is built new in origin. It has no history.

 

The estate agent then takes you to view another site, this time the house is renovated, restored to glory and then tells you it used go be a crack house but its been restored into the gorgeous mansion. Makes for more logic

 

New Jerusalem has  a past described as: “a woman forsaken,” “widowhood,” “desolate,” “the shame of your youth,” “a youthful wife refused,” “with a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment,”  “afflicted one, tossed with tempest, and not comforted,” etc. 

 

The many quotes in Revelation
from the Prophets to describe this New Jerusalem come out of such passages. Therefore,  there can be no question that the New Jerusalem in Revelation is the same city described in Isaiah as the woman that God divorced for her unfaithfulness, but will
restore her not make her new in origion....because something that is new in origion can not have a past.

I don't agree with your argument. kainos is good enough for me to believe it is a NEW (not seen before) Holy City that comes down from heaven. It is ther very word used of our NEW spirit man created when we were born again.

"opinion, with no scriptual support"  Really? There are many things written in the bible ONCE. Perhaps this is one of them.

Rev. 20:21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Are you saying this is not truth because you cannot find it two more times?

I agree that there are two Jerusalems: in fact, almost three: there is the Jerusalem of Old that the Queen of Sheba came to visit and that Jesus visited. Then there will be the Jerusalem of the last half of the 70th week that will be wicked beyond description, a city God will call "Mystery Babylon" for that period of time. And then Jerusalem on earth will be rebuilt for the Millennial reign of Christ. But the earthly city will disappear and be gone forever at the white throne judgment when the entire earth will disappear. And the New earth will have the heavenly New Jerusalem.

Edited June 7, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

13 minutes ago, inchrist said:

You dont have to agree with it but is biblical truth non the less.

So, so far you have taken Johns revelation out of its context, rearranged Isaiah and now you can establish doctrines by one verse by the invention of presumption

Actually it is found more than once...

Right since you have no scripture to support your one verse doctrine....and no scriptual verse to support your assumption that when John saw God sitting on the thrown he also immediately saw heaven and earth disappear at that exact same time.....there is nothing further to discuss....

i am not prepared to ignore a host of scriptual support for the misinterpretation of one verse.

Balance of preponderance out weighs your position.

That is your opinion. I don't think Isaiah has much chronology.
Please show me how I have taken anything in Revelation out of its context.

"Right since you have no scripture to support your one verse doctrine....and no scriptual verse to support your assumption that when John saw God sitting on the thrown he also immediately saw heaven and earth disappear at that exact same time.....there is nothing further to discuss...."

Except I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT!  John saw God seated on the throne in Rev. 4, when he was first called up. He saw heaven and earth disappear FAR LATER in the revelation. IN CONTEXT he saw heaven and earth disappear after the 70th week, and then after the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. My support is taking the book of Revelation AS WRITTEN without any rearranging.

By the way, Revelation is a MUCH later revelation than Isaiah, and is an indepth look at the things Isaiah saw as it were from a distance. IF you find something in Isaiah that is really about the same thing in Revelation they will agree. I have no doubt about that. What I doubt is if what you have shown in Isaiah is really related to the verses in Revelation.

Again by the way, it is VERY HARD to misinterpret a verse such as John seeing the old heaven and earth disappear and then write that no place was found for them.

[iamlamad]

2 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Scriptire syncing with scripture is not an opinion, its called rightly dividing the word of God

Only once not twice

This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'In a little while I will once more shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land.

Sometimes I wonder at your answers. OF COURSE the old heaven and earth can disappear only once! How could they again if no place was found for them, because they disappeared?

If indeed a scripture in Isaiah can be synced with a scripture in Revelation, that is good. My problem is, I am not sure you accurately did that.

So if something is done "ONCE MORE" is it not done more than once?

Do we not see a mighty shaking at the 7th vial? But then, we also see one at the 6th seal. So WHICH is this verse foretelling - if either?  I can find nothing in this passage to pinpoint the timing of this shaking. It does seem to be an end time passage.

[iamlamad]

Just now, inchrist said:

Problem is for your theory, God already did a mighty shaking at Mt Sinai

Hebrews 12:25&26

See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?

At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."

It is once more after referencing back to the shaking of Mt Sinai will God not only shake the earth but this time also the heavens.

In otherwords, first God shooked the earth at Mt Sinai, then God promises to shake it one more time, this time not just the earth....God is not going to shake it another twice more times making it three shakings being MtSinai (once), 6th seal - 7th bowl (once more) and then twice more (end of the Millennium)

 

Paul continues: the kingdom we receive cannot be shaken! 

[iamlamad]

On 6/7/2017 at 1:56 PM, inchrist said:

Therefore it wont be shaken in the Millennium

I DON'T see verses about shaking going on in the Millennium. As I see it, the curse is lifted.

(sorry, I missed the don't first time around)

Edited June 10, 2017 by iamlamad

[OneLight]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well sure. It would be next to impossible to introduce any two things at the same time space moment. Can't write chapter 1 and chapter 2 at the same time, one necessarily follows the other. At the same time the events of the chapters can and many times are concurrent.

Novels are written this way. When the story is moving toward climax the characters are all moving toward that climax concurrently. 

What in the words, "And I saw...." lead you to conclude 'following this?

The words are timeless and orderless. "And I saw...." does not designate a consecutive march. Most only feel this way because "And I saw..." follows the silence in heaven.

To be sure the end of the acts of opening the seals cause the narrative to return to an introduction of a not previously identified set of events, and that's all. From this we cannot, not should not, but cannot, conclude either consecutive or concurrent, only time neutral.

Fine, you stick to your theology and I mine.  When it is all unveiled, we will compare notes to see who is off.  For me, I will continue to see them in sequence as written.