Who is Doing the Forgiving

[Jewels7]

2 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Gen 1:1 should have been worded far better??

So now we know better than God?

Maybe you can enlighten us to what else of God's Word could have been better.

Men translated scripture into English words. 

In the beginninga God createdb the heavensc and the earth.d 2 Now the earth was formlesse and empty,f darkness was over the surface of the deep,gand the Spirit of Godh was hoveringi over the waters.

If the earth was formless, without form, and empty, there would be no surface water. 

[Willa]

I could go along with much of what you said till you came to the astrology.  Yes, ancient man used astrology, and especially the Chaldeans of whom were the Maji.  That doesn't make it righteous or good in any way, and we should guard against it since there is much error and occult in it.  

Nor can I agree that the church was built upon Paul or his blueprint that God gave to him alone.  Paul even checked with the church leaders in Jerusalem to be sure their messages were the same and he had their stamp of approval.  God gives His message to the church, and to all the church.  If he gave it to Paul he also gave it to Peter, John, Matthew and the rest of the apostles.  So often my pastor preaches over the same passage or message as I hear later in the week by pastors of other denominations.  "Hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches" is still in effect.  The church was born at Pentecost, and not when Paul was converted.  Jewish Christians were the first Christians, and Paul always took his message to Jewish congregations before preaching to the Gentiles.  There were true believers among both, then and now.  We are one in Christ as there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, free nor slave in God's economy.  He doesn't look at skin color nor academic credentials.  Peter was an unlearned fisherman, Paul was a Roman but had been schooled in the best rabbinical schools,  Matthew was a tax collector, Andrew a fisherman, etc. But God gifted each with supernatural wisdom, supernatural knowledge, great love and endurance, all because of the life of Christ in them.  

So I find it very disturbing that you elevate Paul above the other apostles.  He was the most prolific writer, probably because of the time spent in prison with little else to do, and because he was constrained to share the Gospel with all who would hear.  He also was a man of prayer.  But I will not say that any apostles was less so because we don't have much writing from them or about them.  

Luther was set free from bondage to legalism when he comprehended that the just shall live by his faith. Habakuk 2:4, Romans 1:17.  Few churches more strongly emphasize salvation by grace through faith, that it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.  Luther set up camp on these scriptures so strongly that he once said that the book of James should be tossed out of the Bible!  But there is a balance to be had, of those who think their head knowledge faith can save them.  To believe is an action verb and the root of the two words are the same Greek word. It means to cling to, adhere to, and rely upon Christ.  The faith that God gifts to us is the kind that is full of love motivated acts of compassion and attitudes that are also full of love and forgiveness.  True faith affords Christ to live in us and He can't help but to produce fruit.  The Holy Spirit in us lights up our faces and eyes with kindness and long suffering, with meekness toward God and humility toward men.  But He also gives us boldness and authority.  So James has his place in Scripture since it brings faith into the balance of practical reality, where the rubber meets the road.  True faith produces godly attitudes and actions because Christ in us can do not other.

I was like Luther and had to learn that we are both saved by faith and that we live by our faith.  Having begun in the Spirit I was trying to live the life in the flesh, and failed miserably.  

Gal 2:20  ESV I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Gal 2:21  I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

[newnature]

15 minutes ago, Jewels7 said:

Men translated scripture into English words. 

In the beginninga God createdb the heavensc and the earth.d 2 Now the earth was formlesse and empty,f darkness was over the surface of the deep,gand the Spirit of Godh was hoveringi over the waters.

If the earth was formless, without form, and empty, there would be no surface water. 

Let’s look at the beginning of Genesis, “And” is the figure of speech Polysyndeton or Many Ands. The repetition of the word “and” at the beginning of successive clauses, each independent, important, and emphatic, with no climax at the end. 34 verses of this introduction, each one of 102 separate acts is emphasized; and the important word “God” in versus 1 is carried like a lamp through the whole of this Introduction. 

 

“The earth” is the figure of speech Anadiplosis or Like sentence endings and beginnings. The word or words concluding one sentence are repeated at the beginning of another. 

 

“Without form” the Hebrew word is ‘tohu va bohu’ and is the figure of speech Paronomasia or Rhyming words. The repetition of words similar in sound,  but not necessarily in sense. Without form, one of the Hebrew words is ‘tohu’ and is used as a subsequent event. Not created ‘tohu’ (Isa. 45:18), but became ‘tohu’ (2 Pet. 3:5-6). The other word is ‘bohu’ and is rendered “void”, means desolate. The two words together occur in Gen. 1:2; Isa. 34:11; Jer. 4:23.

 

“Face” in Genesis 1:2 is the figure Pleonasm or Redundancy. Where what is said is, immediately after, put in another or opposite way to make it impossible for the sense to be missed. 

 

In Genesis 1:2, the two verbs ‘was’ should be the verb ‘to become’. The Revisers ill-advisedly decided that “all such words, now printed in italics, as are plainly implied in the Hebrew, and necessary in English, be printed in common type. One of the consequences of this decision is that the verb “to be” is not distinguished from the verb “to become”, so that the lessons conveyed are lost. 

[Willa]

Newnature said:

"The history of Genesis chapter three is intended to teach us the fact that Satan’s sphere of activities is in the religious sphere, and not the spheres of crime or immorality; that his battlefield is not the sins arising from human depravity, but the unbelief of the human heart."

 

Satan also works through pride and rebellion, since he wanted and wants to be like God and be worshipped, and he rebelled, taking 1/3 of the angels with him.  

Mat 4:8  Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.

Mat 4:9  And he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me."

Mat 4:10  Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"

[newnature]

6 minutes ago, Willa said:

I could go along with much of what you said till you came to the astrology.  Yes, ancient man used astrology, and especially the Chaldeans of whom were the Maji.  That doesn't make it righteous or good in any way, and we should guard against it since there is much error and occult in it.  

Nor can I agree that the church was built upon Paul or his blueprint that God gave to him alone.  Paul even checked with the church leaders in Jerusalem to be sure their messages were the same and he had their stamp of approval.  God gives His message to the church, and to all the church.  If he gave it to Paul he also gave it to Peter, John, Matthew and the rest of the apostles.  So often my pastor preaches over the same passage or message as I hear later in the week by pastors of other denominations.  "Hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches" is still in effect.  The church was born at Pentecost, and not when Paul was converted.  Jewish Christians were the first Christians, and Paul always took his message to Jewish congregations before preaching to the Gentiles.  There were true believers among both, then and now.  We are one in Christ as there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, free nor slave in God's economy.  He doesn't look at skin color nor academic credentials.  Peter was an unlearned fisherman, Paul was a Roman but had been schooled in the best rabbinical schools,  Matthew was a tax collector, Andrew a fisherman, etc. But God gifted each with supernatural wisdom, supernatural knowledge, great love and endurance, all because of the life of Christ in them.  

So I find it very disturbing that you elevate Paul above the other apostles.  He was the most prolific writer, probably because of the time spent in prison with little else to do, and because he was constrained to share the Gospel with all who would hear.  He also was a man of prayer.  But I will not say that any apostles was less so because we don't have much writing from them or about them.  

Luther was set free from bondage to legalism when he comprehended that the just shall live by his faith. Habakuk 2:4, Romans 1:17.  Few churches more strongly emphasize salvation by grace through faith, that it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.  Luther set up camp on these scriptures so strongly that he once said that the book of James should be tossed out of the Bible!  But there is a balance to be had, of those who think their head knowledge faith can save them.  To believe is an action verb and the root of the two words are the same Greek word. It means to cling to, adhere to, and rely upon Christ.  The faith that God gifts to us is the kind that is full of love motivated acts of compassion and attitudes that are also full of love and forgiveness.  True faith affords Christ to live in us and He can't help but to produce fruit.  The Holy Spirit in us lights up our faces and eyes with kindness and long suffering, with meekness toward God and humility toward men.  But He also gives us boldness and authority.  So James has his place in Scripture since it brings faith into the balance of practical reality, where the rubber meets the road.  True faith produces godly attitudes and actions because Christ in us can do not other.

I was like Luther and had to learn that we are both saved by faith and that we live by our faith.  Having begun in the Spirit I was trying to live the life in the flesh, and failed miserably.  

Gal 2:20  ESV I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Gal 2:21  I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

The heart beat of Paul’s new message can be summed up this way. Jesus took care of the sin wall. (Acts 13:38-39) Sins are no longer merely covered, they are now completely paid for, completely forgiven, completely taken out of the way. Jesus removed the alienation sin wall, all inclusive, all upfront; that’s why Jesus could say, “It’s finished.” So difficult for people to accept and appropriate. Far easier for ministers of righteousness to give people a way to come and get right with God and to do it on a daily or weekly bases. If they can give you a way to come and get right with God, they got you and your wallet. People are doing it every week, coming back to try to find a way to get right and stay right with God when it was Jesus who made us right with God. The only way the wall could ever be removed forever was for Jesus to give his life to bring that wall down once and for all. That’s the most tremendous message the world could ever hear. It’s this message Satan hates the most because that wall means alienation and separation and removal of that wall means reconciliation. God can now totally accept people even though people are sinful because all sin has been paid for once and for all! God is glorified in the fact that there is no more wall. Satan doesn’t want God to be glorified.

[newnature]

2 minutes ago, Willa said:

The history of Genesis chapter three is intended to teach us the fact that Satan’s sphere of activities is in the religious sphere, and not the spheres of crime or immorality; that his battlefield is not the sins arising from human depravity, but the unbelief of the human heart.

Satan also works through pride and rebellion, since he wanted and wants to be like God and be worshipped, and he rebelled, taking 1/3 of the angels with him.  

 

Mat 4:8  Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.

Mat 4:9  And he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me."

Mat 4:10  Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"

We see in 2 Corinthians 4:3 the word hid. Satan’s not a mandy pandy at hiding what Jesus accomplished. It’s one thing to have your sin slate wiped clean. It’s something else entirely different to be in the Savior. Righteousness and sin two different things. If people are asking for forgiveness for their sins today, than what do those people understand about what happen to their sins Jesus accomplished for the human race. We shouldn’t be surprised today that Satan, the master counterfeiter, is so successful at confusing what Jesus accomplished. Don’t let anyone confuse you. God is reconciled where the sin debt of the human race is concerned. There’s not a sin you did commit, are committing or could ever commit that God hasn’t reconciled himself through what Jesus accomplished on your behalf. Satan’s ministers of righteousness are keeping the issue of sin on the table of God’s justice. Sin stood between God and the human race but Jesus stepped up according to God’s plan and became sin for the human race. (2 Corinthians 5:21) So becoming sin for the human race and dying for the sins of the human race was the ultimate act of righteousness  where our Savior was concerned. So in the eyes of a perfectly righteous God, Jesus is the only one who has ever earned merited righteousness through his performance. No one else has done so. God was perfectly satisfied with all the sins Jesus did die for. God’s justice was satisfied.

[Willa]

10 minutes ago, newnature said:

The heart beat of Paul’s new message can be summed up this way. Jesus took care of the sin wall. (Acts 13:38-39) Sins are no longer merely covered, they are now completely paid for, completely forgiven, completely taken out of the way. Jesus removed the alienation sin wall, all inclusive, all upfront; that’s why Jesus could say, “It’s finished.” So difficult for people to accept and appropriate. Far easier for ministers of righteousness to give people a way to come and get right with God and to do it on a daily or weekly bases. If they can give you a way to come and get right with God, they got you and your wallet. People are doing it every week, coming back to try to find a way to get right and stay right with God when it was Jesus who made us right with God. The only way the wall could ever be removed forever was for Jesus to give his life to bring that wall down once and for all. That’s the most tremendous message the world could ever hear. It’s this message Satan hates the most because that wall means alienation and separation and removal of that wall means reconciliation. God can now totally accept people even though people are sinful because all sin has been paid for once and for all! God is glorified in the fact that there is no more wall. Satan doesn’t want God to be glorified.

Just as we must receive Christ to be born again, we must also receive His forgiveness when we have knowingly sinned.  It is already provided for us, just as it is provided for the whole world.  We don't need to go through ritual repentance and forgiveness, or even go forward to be saved again as so many churches preach.  But we do need to approach God in our hearts and confess our sin;  otherwise we are unable to approach the throne of grace with a clear conscience.  Yes, the blood of Christ is already applied on the mercy seat once for all.  But our fellowship has been broken so His blood doesn't automatically cleanse us as it did in the prior verse of 1 John 1.  Willful premeditated sin still needs to be confessed to God.  This has nothing do to requirements of any church.  It has to do with our relationship with God in practical terms.  It has nothing to do with the accusations of satan.  It has to do with living with in in the Holy Spirit.  God sets us free  and restores fellowship when we confess our willful sins.  Satan accuses and rubs our noses in it, telling lies "what kind of a Christian are you?" and " God will never forgive you!"  He puts us into bondage.

I do agree that satan's first temptation in Gen. 3 was to doubt Gods word.  But Adam's fall through it all and satan's reign on earth are responsible for the crime and atrocities on this earth.  God certainly is not.  It is mankind in his natural state in satan's kingdom.  Man needs to accept his near kinsman Redeemer's purchase  of him by His own Blood to be free from the reign of satan and his own flesh.

[newnature]

4 minutes ago, Yowm said:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1Jn 1:9)

Notice, it is 'we', John is including himself. If it is good enough for John it is good enough for me

Because of ministers of righteousness people continue to operated today in their thinking, nothings really changed. Their people are under the assumption that their sin debt is separation from God. If an ounce of new reconciliation in this Age of Grace could be restored for anyone when it comes to the issue of their sin debt then the degree of forgiveness that must be obtained in order to restore the reconciliation is the very degree to which that individual refuses to believe that Jesus accomplished it all. Paul’s good news message is hid from those people. They don’t understand what reconciliation is all about. They think that new sin (as Israel’s atonement work) needs a new measure of reconciliation. So they seek forgiveness on the installment plan. Is that not the golden thread woven through every denomination out there? It is. The issue at the Great White Throne Judgement will be those standing there in their own righteousness and not in God’s righteousness.

[newnature]

13 minutes ago, Willa said:

Just as we must receive Christ to be born again, we must also receive His forgiveness when we have knowingly sinned.  It is already provided for us, just as it is provided for the whole world.  We don't need to go through ritual repentance and forgiveness, or even go forward to be saved again as so many churches preach.  But we do need to approach God in our hearts and confess our sin;  otherwise we are unable to approach the throne of grace with a clear conscience.  Yes, the blood of Christ is already applied on the mercy seat once for all.  But our fellowship has been broken so His blood doesn't automatically cleanse us as it did in the prior verse of 1 John 1.  Willful premeditated sin still needs to be confessed to God.  This has nothing do to requirements of any church.  It has to do with our relationship with God in practical terms.  It has nothing to do with the accusations of satan.  It has to do with living with in in the Holy Spirit.  God sets us free  and restores fellowship when we confess our willful sins.  Satan accuses and rubs our noses in it, telling lies "what kind of a Christian are you?" and " God will never forgive you!"  He puts us into bondage.

I do agree that satan's first temptation in Gen. 3 was to doubt Gods word.  But Adam's fall through it all and satan's reign on earth are responsible for the crime and atrocities on this earth.  God certainly is not.  It is mankind in his natural state in satan's kingdom.  Man needs to accept his near kinsman Redeemer's purchase  of him by His own Blood to be free from the reign of satan and his own flesh.

When law became the applicator that Paul used to apply to the problem of his covetousness, he found his coveting sin-sore erupting like Mt. Vesuvius. So you know what the ever presence of the sin problem was like to our apostle who could not escape it? He called it “the body of this death.” One of the most horrible, most cruel forms of punishment in Paul’s day was a method employed by the Romans. It was worse than crucifixion. One of the ways of putting people to death was to take a corpse, someone who had already been executed and to strap that corpse onto the body of a live person. You can imagine what it must have been like as that corpse began to rot. Well, Paul paints that very picture when he illustrates the ever present problem that his sin problem presented to him. Paul couldn’t escape his sin problem no matter how fervently he tried. The law of sin is nothing more than the ever present sin problem that resides in the earthly tabernacle of all God’s earthly human creation given Adam’s rebellion and will continue to remain a part of your earthly tent until you receive your new tent. These fleshly tents will never be worthy of heaven in that they will never be able to perform to the measure of the righteousness that is true of God. Otherwise we’d go to heaven in our old tent, would we not? God doesn’t relate to us on the basis of our performance in the flesh but on the basis of our new identification in his son (The Last Adam).

[gdemoss]

6 hours ago, newnature said:

The law was never designed as a system for the production of righteousness, or to be a system by which we can gain the victory over sin in our lives. The law was designed to be a system for the proof of a lack of righteousness when it comes to rule-keeping for righteousness with God. A return to the law-husband, that will never produce fruit no matter how good and Godly that fruit appears to people, it will never produce fruit that God can accept. That’s illegitimate fruit at the very best. It’ll not fix our flesh, and it’ll not help us gain the victory over our sinful flesh. How unfortunate today that there are so many people who are willing to acknowledge they were saved by grace then revert right back to an application of law-principle in order to stay in relationship with God. We want to be saved by grace and then we want our fellowship with God maintained by rule-keeping. You can think of a lot of ways people do that, whether it be by communion, tithing, Saturday or Sunday Sabbath-keeping, baptism. God didn’t give the law for that purpose. He gave it to shine the high beams, the spotlight on our indwelling sin.

Agreed, was there something in my post that led you to believe I wouldn't agree with this or were you expounding further on the point?