Apologetic / Counter Cult Ministry

[JohnD]

14 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

John, thank you for this insightful post. Do you believe, as I do, that what calls itself: "evangelical" or "born again" is now gradually, to a greater extent, basically anti-Trinitarianism (which will often call itself the Trinity), but with modalism or tri-theism, being at the real core of it's essential doctrines. Not holding to the Trinity (as defined in the creeds), these people often have highly erroneous views about the person and work of Christ, such as Jesus only has one spirit the divine spirit (Apollinarianism) and Christ's atonement was completed in hell, not finished at the cross (JDS - Jesus Died Spiritually heresy). Finally, getting these two wrong, naturally they come up with unorthodox versions of the gospel, most of which add works (often in the form of compulsory tithing) to grace. Frankly, here in the UK, many churches are now doctrinally very little different than the cults, in fact the cults are often more honest that evangelicals, as the cults are often open and honest about their anti-Trinitarianism, whilst evangelicals will often have a fairly Biblical statement of faith on their web site, which sounds great, but which the church leaders then simply ignore as being "led by the spirit" they make stuff up on the hoof.

Wow.

I guess there's a question for me in there... yes?

I am aware of the heresies you mentioned (and more) held by many versions of the Church Organization as well as the cults.

I base correct Trinitarian theology on scripture. Even the creeds have errors. For example God the Father did not create Heaven and Earth (the so-called Apostle's Creed). God the Word did it alone by himself (Isaiah 44:24).

Apollinarianism I'm not really "up" on... I will say this, Philippians 2:5-11 clearly indicate that one Spirit became the man Christ Jesus. I have heard (from a distance) arguments that Jesus "had a human spirit" and I never engaged or looked much into the argument.

Jesus Christ is a prototype (Adam) direct creation of God the Father (as the first Adam was a prototype direct creation of God the Word). God the Word made the first Adam in the image of the Adam God the Father would make.  As I understand what the Bible says, this sinless prototype is what God the Word became  in the incarnation.

If someone rationalizes the need for another spirit or whatever... let them produce the scriptures that make their case and we can go over them together.

But I believe the way the Bible teaches it, God in the way he did it already covered all bases with regard to the incarnation.

 

[George]

3 hours ago, JohnD said:

Jesus Christ is a prototype (Adam) direct creation of God the Father (as the first Adam was a prototype direct creation of God the Word). God the Word made the first Adam in the image of the Adam God the Father would make. 

I'd like to see passages that prove that JESUS was CREATED?  If you can't -- then this is completely AGAINST what John 1 talks about!

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 
Joh 1:2  He was in the beginning with God. 
Joh 1:3  All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 
Joh 1:4  In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 
Joh 1:5  The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. 
 

Joh 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 

God bless,

George

[Guest shiloh357]

5 hours ago, JohnD said:

Jesus Christ is a prototype (Adam) direct creation of God the Father (as the first Adam was a prototype direct creation of God the Word). God the Word made the first Adam in the image of the Adam God the Father would make.  As I understand what the Bible says, this sinless prototype is what God the Word became  in the incarnation.

 

That is not contained in Scripture at all.   Jesus was not the creation of Father.   Jesus is as eternal as the Father.   Nowhere does the Bible present Jesus as a prototype of anything.   You're not getting that from Scripture.  

[appy]

6 hours ago, JohnD said:

Jesus Christ is a prototype (Adam) direct creation of God the Father (as the first Adam was a prototype direct creation of God the Word). God the Word made the first Adam in the image of the Adam God the Father would make.  As I understand what the Bible says, this sinless prototype is what God the Word became  in the incarnation.

say what?

[Limey_Bob]

7 hours ago, JohnD said:

 

I base correct Trinitarian theology on scripture. Even the creeds have errors. For example God the Father did not create Heaven and Earth (the so-called Apostle's Creed). God the Word did it alone by himself (Isaiah 44:24).

 

Hello JohnD,  thank you for your prompt reply. Obviously I would agree with you that the creeds are not perfect, however, I haven't seen anything superior and better than the creedal definition of God. Sadly, you've illustrated my point that many evangelicals are especially weak on the Trinity. In Trinitarian thought, Father, Son and Holy Spirit always work together (in slightly different ways) in all things such as creation and redemption. So your comment that God the Father did not create the heavens is inaccurate, as both the Bible and the creeds state that he did. Look for instance at 1st Corinthians 8:6, where creation is (ek = out of) the Father and then (di = through) the Son, so Father and Son are both active in creation, but not in exactly the same way. The Father alone is the source of the creation, but he then creates THROUGH the Son, elsewhere Scripture talks about the Holy Spirit also creating (Job 33:4), so creation is said to be in the power of the Holy Spirit. So yes you are correct that Yahweh God, mentioned at Isaiah 44:24 created the universe all alone. However, Yahweh God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so the one single creator of the Universe is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

regards

robert

[SavedOnebyGrace]

8 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

Hello JohnD,  thank you for your prompt reply. Obviously I would agree with you that the creeds are not perfect, however, I haven't seen anything superior and better than the creedal definition of God. Sadly, you've illustrated my point that many evangelicals are especially weak on the Trinity. In Trinitarian thought, Father, Son and Holy Spirit always work together (in slightly different ways) in all things such as creation and redemption. So your comment that God the Father did not create the heavens is inaccurate, as both the Bible and the creeds state that he did. Look for instance at 1st Corinthians 8:6, where creation is (ek = out of) the Father and then (di = through) the Son, so Father and Son are both active in creation, but not in exactly the same way. The Father alone is the source of the creation, but he then creates THROUGH the Son, elsewhere Scripture talks about the Holy Spirit also creating (Job 33:4), so creation is said to be in the power of the Holy Spirit. So yes you are correct that Yahweh God, mentioned at Isaiah 44:24 created the universe all alone. However, Yahweh God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so the one single creator of the Universe is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

regards

robert

This is why I chose Genesis 1:1-1:2 to illustrate the work of the Trinity in Creation.  In the States, we have a growing number of nominal Evangelicals who are inserting their particular theology in place of Gods written word.  Blessings and God be with you.

[JohnD]

18 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

Hello JohnD,  thank you for your prompt reply. Obviously I would agree with you that the creeds are not perfect, however, I haven't seen anything superior and better than the creedal definition of God. Sadly, you've illustrated my point that many evangelicals are especially weak on the Trinity. In Trinitarian thought, Father, Son and Holy Spirit always work together (in slightly different ways) in all things such as creation and redemption. So your comment that God the Father did not create the heavens is inaccurate, as both the Bible and the creeds state that he did. Look for instance at 1st Corinthians 8:6, where creation is (ek = out of) the Father and then (di = through) the Son, so Father and Son are both active in creation, but not in exactly the same way. The Father alone is the source of the creation, but he then creates THROUGH the Son, elsewhere Scripture talks about the Holy Spirit also creating (Job 33:4), so creation is said to be in the power of the Holy Spirit. So yes you are correct that Yahweh God, mentioned at Isaiah 44:24 created the universe all alone. However, Yahweh God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so the one single creator of the Universe is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

regards

robert

Let's look at the passage.

1 Corinthians 8:6 (NASB95)
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

This is actually a favorite of the Jehovah's Witnesses who take it out of the over all context of the Bible to make it sound like only God the Father is God.

And Jesus Christ while he is called Lord (kurios) is only the agency through whom God the Father created all things.

Colossians 1:13–16 (NASB95)
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14 in whom we have redemption(a), the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created(b), both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him(c).

Isaiah 44:24 (NASB95)
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer(a), and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

You say Jesus is not YHVH (Yahweh). John 8:58 / Exodus 3:13-15 differs with that claim. 

In the Hebrew text Isiah 44:24 says twice the Redeemer is YHVH. The Father is not the redeemer but is the one to whom the redemption price is paid (Isaiah 53). Those who reject the sacrifice of YHVH the Son will owe eternal damnation to YHVH the Father for unbelief in his Son.

Furthermore, Adam is a son of God (Luke 3:38) Genesis 6 mentions sons of God, Job chapters 1 and 2, and we who believe in Jesus are declared children of God. Yet somehow Jesus is said to be the ONLY Son of God. If your theology is that the Father created the heavens and the earth and the people in it you have a problem because God the Father doesn't have one ONLY son but many.

John 1:14 (NASB95)
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clears up everything. Scriptures don't contradict themselves.

And as far as Job 33:4 goes... the Hebrew word for "made" is extremely subjective:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnD]

21 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

That is not contained in Scripture at all.   Jesus was not the creation of Father.   Jesus is as eternal as the Father.   Nowhere does the Bible present Jesus as a prototype of anything.   You're not getting that from Scripture.  

1 Corinthians 15:43–45 (NASB95)
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Prototype A

Prototype B

And Jesus is as Eternal [in Spirit] as the Father. Never said he wasn't. His body is another matter.

Hebrews 10:5–7 (NASB95)
5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me;
6 In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure.
7 “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.’ ”

Hebrews 1:5 (NASB95)
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me”?

Jesus is far more than just one of the three Individuals who are the one God becoming human in the sense of trying on a body like it was a glove. God the Word BECAME the man Jesus without losing / surrendering his deity. 

Philippians 2:5–11 (NASB95)
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Verse 6 in the Greek "morphe theos huparchon" (in the form of God sustaining / never ceasing to be).

1 Timothy 2:5 (NASB95)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, ← only affirming his humanity that he is God equal with God and truly man but not in the exact as the sons of the first Adam.  Likeness / appearance...  and yet he is truly human and truly divine.

[Limey_Bob]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

Let's look at the passage.

1 Corinthians 8:6 (NASB95)
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

This is actually a favorite of the Jehovah's Witnesses who take it out of the over all context of the Bible to make it sound like only God the Father is God.

And Jesus Christ while he is called Lord (kurios) is only the agency through whom God the Father created all things.

Colossians 1:13–16 (NASB95)
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14 in whom we have redemption(a), the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created(b), both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him(c).

Isaiah 44:24 (NASB95)
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer(a), and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

You say Jesus is not YHVH (Yahweh). John 8:58 / Exodus 3:13-15 differs with that claim. 

In the Hebrew text Isiah 44:24 says twice the Redeemer is YHVH. The Father is not the redeemer but is the one to whom the redemption price is paid (Isaiah 53). Those who reject the sacrifice of YHVH the Son will owe eternal damnation to YHVH the Father for unbelief in his Son.

Furthermore, Adam is a son of God (Luke 3:38) Genesis 6 mentions sons of God, Job chapters 1 and 2, and we who believe in Jesus are declared children of God. Yet somehow Jesus is said to be the ONLY Son of God. If your theology is that the Father created the heavens and the earth and the people in it you have a problem because God the Father doesn't have one ONLY son but many.

John 1:14 (NASB95)
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clears up everything. Scriptures don't contradict themselves.

And as far as Job 33:4 goes... the Hebrew word for "made" is extremely subjective:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what is your point JohnD, it's annoying when people post many scriptures without any comment? So if Isaiah 44:24 states that only Yahweh God alone is the creator (and it does), and if 1st Corinthians 8:6 states (and it does) that creation is out of (ek) the Father and then through (di) the Son, then as both the Father and Son are both active in creation, that means that both the Father and Son must be the one single Yahweh who is the one God of the Bible.

[Limey_Bob]

12 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

This is why I chose Genesis 1:1-1:2 to illustrate the work of the Trinity in Creation.  In the States, we have a growing number of nominal Evangelicals who are inserting their particular theology in place of Gods written word.  Blessings and God be with you.

Here in Plymouth in the UK, many evangelicals who attend churches with firm Trinitarian doctrinal statements of faith on their web sites, are themselves non-Trinitarian; usually modalists who claim that Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Or else they are tri-theists who'll claim that God is three separate persons or separate beings each with his own mind, will, even essence etc. So sadly, most evangelicals simply do not understand the Trinity, and give non-Trinitarian definitions of the Trinity, or unbiblical views about the person of Christ; such as that he has only one spirit (Apollinarianism) or that he is the Father (Modalism) or I was even told at Plymouth Christian Center, which is Plymouth's largest church on their 2012 Alpha course that Christ did not make a full atonement on the cross, he went to hell after dying on the cross and I was told that he then offered a sacrifice to Satan where the atonement was complete. The influence of GOD TV and vile American TV preachers who also have unbiblical views of the Trinity, as well as teaching both compulsory tithing and signs and wonders (miracles) has been truly horrific.

 

Many people, such as myself have simply walked out of "church" never to return, as they (I ) realize that much evangelicalism is focused upon subjective, touchy-feely feelings and bears more in common with ancient Gnosticism than with creedal Christianity. When Christians were martyred for their faith in the first three centuries, they died defending objective, literal and real facts; such as Christ's literal and physical bodily resurrection, or that Christ was both fully God and fully man, or his literal, personal and physical imminent second coming. Most of today's evangelicals, here in Plymouth and in the South-West of the UK have completely abandoned facts, evidence or proof, and their evangelical religion is feminized mush of hyper-emotions and their own subjective (often mystical) feelings, which they get hyped up by loud pop music every Sunday morning when they sing songs reminiscent of "Jesus is my boyfriend music" which even the few weak beta-males who haven't yet abandoned the fellowship completely to the dominant women seem to enjoy singing.

 

One has to shake your head with sadness, thinking of the ancient martyrs in the arena being asked by the Roman soldiers: "Are you willing to die for your faith?" Only to then hear the reply: "Yes, I get warm feelings in my tummy, whenever I sing the "Jesus is my boyfriend music" every Sunday, and so yes, I will never deny my own subjective mystical feelings, as what I think and how I feel is a million times more important to me than telling people truthful objective facts about Jesus, so yes, go ahead crucify me, I will gladly die testifying to the Lordship in my own life, of my own subjective feelings over all and any objective truth." Oh my, is it any wonder why Christianity is dying here in the UK and the Muslims (who reject post-modern feelings, and instead teach lies as objective facts), knowing full well that 99% of the weak feminized and cowardly Christians will never challenge them or their claimed factual statements about Christ (which are actually lies such as he did not die on a cross and he was only a prophet but not God and man)!