9/23/17, Rev 12:5, X etc..

[Heb 13:8]

2 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

The woman in question could only be one of two things, Israel or the church.

Hi kenny2212, the woman/mother/virgo is Israel, read Isa 50:1, Jer 3:8. Israel is our mother in the sense that she gave birth to Christianity (the body of Christ) 2000 years ago by putting Jesus to death. Now she has to give birth in the end times, so the church can receive their resurrected bodies through rapture. 1 Cor 15:50-54.

2 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

It's not the church because the bible says the Antichrist wages war against the saints (Rev. 13:7). The church is not protected anywhere for 1260 days.

Actually, Jupiter does represent the church/body of Christ in Rev 12:1-5. Notice the word "harpazo" in Rev 12:5. This is where we get the word rapture, also in 1 Thess 4:17. The harpazo is for the church only, the body of Christ. Once Israel gives birth to the body of Christ in September of 2017, we are raptured, rescued from the dragon in Rev 12:3-4.

Rev 13:7 is referring to tribulation saints, those who come to Christ inside the 70th week of Daniel.

2 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Although I believe Christians will not be here by then. I believe we'll all be gone before then. I'm pre-wrath.

I used to be pre-wrath too, Marvin Rosenthal etc.. then I woke up to the Rev 12:1-5 great sign in the heavens. This sign is coming to pass on 9/23/17, and the word "harpazo" is in connection with this sign. This confirms pre-trib rapture. John in Revelation is connecting the head (Jesus Christ) with the body (the church) when Israel gives birth.

God will also be bringing back the Jews into their land..

Isa 50:1 This is what the LORD says: “Where is your mother's certificate of divorce with which I sent her away? Or to which of my creditors did I sell you? Because of your sins you were sold; because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.

Isa 54:1-10 “Sing, barren woman, you who never bore a child; burst into song, shout for joy, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband,” says the LORD. 2 “Enlarge the place of your tent, stretch your tent curtains wide, do not hold back; lengthen your cords, strengthen your stakes. 3 For you will spread out to the right and to the left; your descendants will dispossess nations and settle in their desolate cities. 4 “Do not be afraid; you will not be put to shame. Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated. You will forget the shame of your youth and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood. 5 For your Maker is your husband— the LORD Almighty is his name— the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth. 6 The LORD will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit— a wife who married young, only to be rejected,” says your God. 7 “For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back. 8 In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you,” says the LORD your Redeemer. 9 “To me this is like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth. So now I have sworn not to be angry with you, never to rebuke you again. 10 Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,” says the LORD, who has compassion on you.

Jer 3:8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.

Micah 5:3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned until the time when she who is in labor bears a son, and the rest of his brothers return to join the Israelites.

2 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Also the baby is not the church. Verse 17 says the dragon sets out to attack the rest of her children. We know the rest is not Israel (that's settled, they are protected), also it can't be the church because the bible says "rest of her children". There would be no rest if the baby is the church. They would already be with God. The rest are those that give their lives to Jesus after the rapture. The baby is Jesus. Any comments?

The baby in gestation right now in Rev 12:1-5 is actually the church. Rev 12:17 is also referring to tribulation saints, those left behind after the pre-trib rapture. Notice the definition of the word "loipos" below...

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest (loipos) of her offspring--those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

loipos : the rest, the remaining
Original Word: λοιπός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: loipos
Phonetic Spelling: (loy-poy')
Short Definition: left, left behind, the remainder
Definition: left, left behind, the remainder, the rest, the others.

2 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Any comments?

The 70th week is 7 years of darkness. God says the church is of the light and of the day. If the church entered into the 70th week, God would be in contradiction.

Joel 2:2 Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming. It is close at hand--2a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such as never was in ancient times nor ever will be in ages to come.

Zep 1:15 That day will be a day of wrath— a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness

1 Thess 5:5-7 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.

The church also isn't called to God's wrath, which the 70th week is considered..

Zep 1:15 That day will be a day of wrath— a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness

1 Thess 5:9-11 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

[Heb 13:8]

Encouragement connected to labor pains.

1 Cor 14:1-8 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,b but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified. 6Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?

1 Thess 2:11-20 For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children, 12encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory. 13And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last. 17But, brothers and sisters, when we were orphaned by being separated from you for a short time (in person, not in thought), out of our intense longing we made every effort to see you. 18For we wanted to come to you—certainly I, Paul, did, again and again—but Satan blocked our way. 19For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you? 20Indeed, you are our glory and joy.

1 Thess 4:13-17 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Thess 5:1-14 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing. 12Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, to acknowledge those who work hard among you, who care for you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. 14And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone.

2 Thess 2:1-17 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the falling away (rapture) occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. 13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 16May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.

2 Tim 4:1-5 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Titus 2:11-15 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. 15These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

Heb 10:19-25 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

1 Pet 5:1-14 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away. 5In the same way, you who are younger, submit yourselves to your elders. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.” 6Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. 7Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you. 8Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings. 10And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. 11To him be the power for ever and ever. Amen. 12With the help of Silas, whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it. 13She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark. 14Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ.

[Heb 13:8]

Isa 66:7-9 “Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. 8 Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. 9 Do I bring to the moment of birth and not give delivery?” says the LORD. “Do I close up the womb when I bring to delivery?” says your God.

1 Pet 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

[Heb 13:8]

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_2_18?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=the+book+of+esdras&sprefix=the+book+of+Esdras%2Caps%2C161&crid=3S7CB4UTHIKV4

While no other text can claim this same unique authority, Apocryphal and Pseudepigraphal literature such as contained in the first volume of The Researchers Library of Ancient Texts (Volume One—The Apocrypha: Includes the Books of Enoch, Jasher, and Jubilees; also available on Kindle), provides literature that often precedes or follows the chronology of biblical texts, which frequently are used or assigned as supplemental works within academic settings to help students and scholars discover or better understand cultural and historical context within the Word of God. Whether or not the information contained in the apocryphal literature is entirely precise—as is the canon of Scripture—these ancient texts provide commentators’ valuable insight into what many ancient Jews and early Christians believed when, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets” (Heb. 1:1).

"First Esdras contains the whole of Ezra with the addition of one section; its verses are numbered differently. Just as Ezra begins with the last two verses of 2 Chronicles, 1 Esdras begins with the last two chapters; this suggests that Chronicles and Esdras may have been read as one book at sometime in the past. Ezra 4:6 includes a reference to a King Ahasuerus. Etymologicaly, Ahasuerus is the same as Xerxes, who reigned between Darius and Artaxerxes...in 1 Esdras, Cyrus the Great, Darius the Great, and Artaxerxes I appear in their historical order." --Wikipedia

The Books of Esdras (1 & 2) are available in The Researchers Library of Ancient Texts (Volume One—The Apocrypha: Includes the Books of Enoch, Jasher, and Jubilees; also available on Kindle), as well as The Book of Enoch, The Book of Jasher, The Book of Jubilees, 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Tobias, Sirach, Wisdom, Judith, Baruch, Susanna, Prayer of Azariah, Prayer of Manasseh, Bel and the Dragon, and Laodiceans. - Thomas Horn

2 Esdras 16 (labor pains)
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjva/2-esdras/16.html

37 The disasters are approaching rapidly, and they will not be delayed. 38 A woman in the ninth month of pregnancy may suffer labor pains for several hours, but when the time comes for the baby to be born, there is no longer any delay. 39 In the same way, the disasters that are coming on the earth will not be delayed, and the world will groan when it is caught in its labor pains. 40 Listen to my message, my people, and get ready for the battle. When the disasters come, you must live as people whose home is not in this world.

[Heb 13:8]

A Side Note: If Rev 12:1-5 were pointing to the birth of Christ 2,000 years ago it would read like this..

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman (Mary) clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.   2  She (Mary) was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.   3  Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon (Herod) with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.   4  Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon (Herod) stood in front of the woman (Mary) who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (huios Jesus Christ himself) the moment he was born.   5  She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (huios Jesus Christ himself) was lifted up (epairó) to God and to his throne.

But it doesn't, rather it reads like this..

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman (Israel) clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.   2  She (Israel) was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.   3  Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon (Satan) with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.   4  Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon (Satan) stood in front of the woman (Israel) who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (teknon the church) the moment he was born.   5  She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne.

Also, Jesus lived for 33 years before ascending to heaven. Rev 12:5 has the child being snatched up to God's throne right away.

Isa 26:17-21 As a pregnant woman about to give birth writhes and cries out in her pain, so were we in your presence, Lord. 18We were with child, we writhed in labor, but we gave birth to wind. We have not brought salvation to the earth, and the people of the world have not come to life. 19But your dead will live, Lord; their bodies will rise— let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy— your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. 20Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. 21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed on it; the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

[Heb 13:8]

A Side Note: I do believe epairó and harpazo have two different meanings and exegesis. Jesus wasn't caught up, He was lifted (raised) up because at that point He had defeated the devil. He didn't need to be obtained by robbery because He won.

The church however does need to be obtained by robbery, because of the red dragon. We need Jesus help.

epairó

1. to be lifted up, not a rescue
2. Jesus ascended slowly in victory from the devil

harpazo

1. to be snatched away, rescued

2. The church will be snatched away quickly, from red dragon

epairó: to lift up
Original Word: ἐπαίρω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: epairó
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ahee'-ro)
Short Definition: I raise, lift up
Definition: I raise, lift up.

harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Short Definition: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery
Definition: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

[Heb 13:8]

Keep in mind that,

when we place rapture (the year of overcoming the enemy and complete victory) on 9/21/17, the abomination of desolation will then land on Passover on 4/2/21 when the great tribulation begins (the year of the great wickedness of rebellion and sin) and the second coming of Christ will also land on the Day of Atonement on 9/13/24 (the year and millennium of priesthood).

overcoming the enemy and complete victory - Dan 12:11 & Rom 12:1 sacrifice, 1 Thess 4:17, 1 John 5:4-5, Rev 2:26-27, Rev 12:5
bondage - Isa 66:7-9 Jews, Rom 7:1-6 & Rom 8:18-21 & Gal 4:1-7 for the left behind
judgment - Isa 26:21, 1 Thess 5:1-3, 2 Pet 2:9, Rev 6, Rev 14:7
waiting period - 2 Thess 2:4-6
the great wickedness of rebellion and sin - Isa 26:21, Dan 8&11, Matt 24:15-21, 2 Thess 2, Rev 8-18
disorder and chaos - Isa 26:21, Dan 8&11, Matt 24:15-21, 2 Thess 2, Rev 8-18
judge - Heb 10:30, Rev 6:10
priesthood - Rom 15:14-16, Rev 15:1-2, Rev 20:4-6
grace upon grace Isa 11, Rev 20:4-6

2017 - In the Bible the number 17 symbolizes "overcoming the enemy" and "complete victory"
2018 - In the Bible the number 18 symbolizes "bondage"
2019 - In the Bible the number 19 symbolizes "judgment"
2020 - In the Bible the number 20 symbolizes "waiting period"
2021 - In the Bible the number 21 symbolizes "the great wickedness of rebellion and sin"
2022 - In the Bible the number 22 symbolizes "disorder and chaos"
2023 - In the Bible the number 23 symbolizes "judge"
2024 - In the Bible the number 24 symbolizes "priesthood"
2025 - In the Bible the number 25 symbolizes "grace upon grace"

17 - http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/17.html
18 - http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/18.html
19 - http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/19.html
20 - http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/19.html
21 - http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/21.html
22 - http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/22.html
23 - http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/hidden-numbers.html
24 - http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/24.html
25 - http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/25.html

[Spock]

Hey Heb 13:8,

so what are you going to say when the rapture doesn't occur 9/21/17?  Do you have your answer prepared yet?  

[other one]

4 hours ago, Spock said:

Hey Heb 13:8,

so what are you going to say when the rapture doesn't occur 9/21/17?  Do you have your answer prepared yet?  

how about....    "See I told you there wasn't a pretrib rapture"  

 

Oh,   I'm sorry you were asking someone else that question.

 

[Heb 13:8]

4 hours ago, Spock said:

Hey Heb 13:8,

so what are you going to say when the rapture doesn't occur 9/21/17?  Do you have your answer prepared yet?  

If it doesn't occur then I'll just go back to the drawing board and go deeper into the Word. At this point in prophecy, I rather be awake and wrong, then asleep and right.