election/freewill- GOT IT !!!!

[warrior12]

24 minutes ago, ravindran said:

It is God who makes us 'freely' choose Him. Due to original sin, our inclination was to reject Him. We rejected Him freely. We were spiritually dead. It is God who regenerates and revises us spiritually. In regenerate state, we 'freely' choose Him. Which is our faith in Christ.

 God regenerates and revises us spiritually.   What is this process and is this done to every man after Adam.     Could you explain what you mean by regenerate and revise ?.  Thanks.

[ravindran]

24 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

 God regenerates and revises us spiritually.   What is this process and is this done to every man after Adam.     Could you explain what you mean by regenerate and revise ?.  Thanks.

Actually I meant to say "revives" and not revises  Sorry about that. We read in Titus 3:5

he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

This is ESV. Some translation simply uses rebirth in place of regeneration. It would make sense. It is the act of God when He gives us spiritual life. He revives or renews us from spiritual death. And I believe regeneration is the only way a person can have faith. This is true from the time of fall of Adam. What has changed after Pentecost is indwelling of Holy Spirit and not regeneration.

 

[ravindran]

49 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

This is a profound statement from the Lord.  Maybe, i am not interpreting it correctly.  Explain to me these words.

Exodus 9King James Version (KJV)

¹⁶ And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

 

I also see in the OT, that the Lord had CHOSEN, Isarel as his people and told them when they go into the promise Land, they were to wipe out the Philistines and other pagan tribes there.  Was not this God choosing directly a people for himself ?.    It is the pattern here i am looking at.   

Yes, God did choose Israel. While Lord chose nations and people, it would be incorrect to say Lord "caused" or "made" someone to reject Him. God chose Israel and other nations rejected Lord. If God did not choose Israel, they would have also rejected Lord.

Pharaoh did rejected Lord and it was his own sin and hardness of heart. Lord did not intervene and restrain his wickedness. Lord chose not to stop Pharaoh. That is the right perspective to look at it. That is what it means when it says Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. He simply let is harden

[No124get1952]

Let me say this about that:

The discussion of election is a very interesting one. Pharoah, as explained by others, was given a choice to serve God or not serve God. In that choice he was no different than any of us. Through 10 trials and 10 successive defeats, Pharoah was still given the opportunity to believe God. It was the hardness of his own heart that caused him to  interrupt grieving for his own son to pursue revenge. In the end, God got ALL the glory, which is always going to be the end of any issue, no matter what our decisions are. Our only hope is to be on His side because God shares his blessings with us even though most of the time we don't deserve them.

The Hebrews were elected based upon God's covenant with Abraham. They certainly proved they did not choose God all by themselves. Again, they represent us, given a chance we still want to go back to the "old ways and old days". We are so weak of faith that unless God continually "shows us" signs, we get screwy. But I am very grateful for the Holy Spirit who guides me into all truth. I thank God for His grace because I need it to keep on going in Christ.

[simplejeff]

1 hour ago, No124get1952 said:

Pharoah, as explained by others, was given a choice to serve God or not serve God.

In that choice he was no different than any of us.

"given a choice" \ Was Pharoah told to serve YHWH,  or simply to let YHWH'S chosen people go ?

"no different" \ Was Pharoah a descendant of Abraham ?

 

[No124get1952]

simpleJeff, since God created ALL men, his appeal is to ALL men. Pharoah only had to let Moses' people go, but the Bible records that even Pharoah's mother in law went with the Hebrews, so they did take some Egyptian converts with them. That is very interesting because the Hebrews themselves were barely converts of YHWH. So Pharoah had an opportunity to actually serve God. Pharoah was NOT a descendant of Abraham.

If you study history long enough, you will find that, of all the tribes and nations on the earth at the time of Pharoah, the Hebrew sons of Abraham and the Ishmael sons of Abraham were the only two mono-theistic cultures....meaning they believed in only one God.

[ghtan]

11 hours ago, warrior12 said:

This is a profound statement from the Lord.  Maybe, i am not interpreting it correctly.  Explain to me these words.

Exodus 9King James Version (KJV)

¹⁶ And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

 

I also see in the OT, that the Lord had CHOSEN, Isarel as his people and told them when they go into the promise Land, they were to wipe out the Philistines and other pagan tribes there.  Was not this God choosing directly a people for himself ?.    It is the pattern here i am looking at.   

Nothing in Ex 9:16 suggests Pharoah did not have a choice. It is like a father saying to his son, "I raised you up to take over the business from me." Does the son have a choice? Very much so.

Moreover, was God referring to Pharoah alone or all Egypt? More likely the latter. Because in v 15, God says, "...that would have wiped you off the earth." Who is the "you"? Only Pharoah? Hardly need to use a plague to wipe out one individual. More likely God was referring to all Egypt. That should follow through into v 16.

As for Israel, God chose the nation, not individual Israelites. Those who belong to (spiritual) Israel - were saved. The choice to belong was up to every Israelite. Some chose to opt out - e.g. those who started worshiping idols instead - whereas some non-Israelites, e.g. Ruth, chose to opt in. Same today, God chooses (elect) the group who follows Christ to be saved. Whether we choose (freewill) to be in that group is up to each of us.

[warrior12]

11 hours ago, ghtan said:

Nothing in Ex 9:16 suggests Pharoah did not have a choice. It is like a father saying to his son, "I raised you up to take over the business from me." Does the son have a choice? Very much so.

Moreover, was God referring to Pharoah alone or all Egypt? More likely the latter. Because in v 15, God says, "...that would have wiped you off the earth." Who is the "you"? Only Pharoah? Hardly need to use a plague to wipe out one individual. More likely God was referring to all Egypt. That should follow through into v 16.

As for Israel, God chose the nation, not individual Israelites. Those who belong to (spiritual) Israel - were saved. The choice to belong was up to every Israelite. Some chose to opt out - e.g. those who started worshiping idols instead - whereas some non-Israelites, e.g. Ruth, chose to opt in. Same today, God chooses (elect) the group who follows Christ to be saved. Whether we choose (freewill) to be in that group is up to each of us.

Really ?.   Maybe the apostle Paul had something to say about that.  Vs 18 below says something, doesn't it...   I think paul was showing here the sovereignty and absolute authority and power of God.     

Romans 9King James Version (KJV)

¹³ As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

¹⁴ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

¹⁵ For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

¹⁶ So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

¹⁷ For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

¹⁸ Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

¹⁹ Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

²⁰ Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

²¹ Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

[ghtan]

12 hours ago, warrior12 said:

Really ?.   Maybe the apostle Paul had something to say about that.  Vs 18 below says something, doesn't it...   I think paul was showing here the sovereignty and absolute authority and power of God.     

Romans 9King James Version (KJV)

¹³ As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

¹⁴ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

¹⁵ For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

¹⁶ So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

¹⁷ For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

¹⁸ Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

¹⁹ Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

²⁰ Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

²¹ Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Moses' Israelites worshiped golden calf (freewill). Pharoah's Egypt opposed God (freewill). Both deserved punishment. God chooses (elect) to have mercy on Israelites but to harden Egyptians (sovereignty).

[simplejeff]

Many Israelites were punished for making an idol,,  also for having an idol,  and for worshiping it.

They had to repent to live,  and to receive YHWH'S blessings again.

Same happens today,  even if people try to pretend innocent, as sometimes the Israelites did, 

as Ananias and Saphira did ....and died.

Egyptians that left Egypt with the Israelites received YHWH'S BLESSINGS same as the Israelites did. 

Egyptians who knew what YHWH commanded the Israeltites,  who put the blood on the door frame as YHWH directed,  received their first born alive as the Israelites did.

Out of the pagan nations,  that served other gods, and were without hope in the world,

when someone sought YHWH,  they found HIM.  YHWH is no respecter of persons.