Is Maryology Idolatry?

[4LdKHVCzRDj2]

1 hour ago, Judas Machabeus said:

I would ask you than why ask your fellow Christians to pray for you. Or better yet when a prayer request comes in why don't you say to them what you are saying here?

I encourage them to pray with us when a prayer request is made. I believe each of us should pray and pour our hearts unto God; not just ask others to pray for us and always do nothing, we should all pray together.

Praying together with the people who are with us is completely different than asking Mary or other person who is not with us anymore in this world to deliver our prayer to the Lord.

 

"For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them." - Matthew 18:20

 

1 hour ago, Judas Machabeus said:

we are all apart of the Body of Christ and I argue that includes those in heaven. Those in heaven are not dead. They are more alive then those on earth.

"Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common." - Acts 4:32

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

50 minutes ago, 4LdKHVCzRDj2 said:

Praying together with the people who are with us is completely different than asking Mary or other person who is not with us anymore in this world to deliver our prayer to the Lord.

When we pray to Mary or any Saint. We are asking to have our prayers joined with theirs. 

You make a distinction that those in heaven are not with us. Yet Paul says all that are members of the body of Christ are of one body and one part can not say to another that it doesn't need it. 

So IF those in heaven are members of the body of Christ and Paul in scripture says one part can not say to another.. I don't need you... than how can you say that those in heaven don't need us and we don't need them?

[enoob57]

7 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

When we pray to Mary or any Saint. We are asking to have our prayers joined with theirs. 

You make a distinction that those in heaven are not with us. Yet Paul says all that are members of the body of Christ are of one body and one part can not say to another that it doesn't need it. 

So IF those in heaven are members of the body of Christ and Paul in scripture says one part can not say to another.. I don't need you... than how can you say that those in heaven don't need us and we don't need them?

1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV)

[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Thus why we are to enter into prayer for others for it is solely through Christ alone we approach The Father...
This according to Scripture there is only [God<-> The Man Jesus and <-the person]... all else is outside of this Paradigm!
Love, Steven

[Guest shiloh357]

44 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

When we pray to Mary or any Saint. We are asking to have our prayers joined with theirs. 

You make a distinction that those in heaven are not with us. Yet Paul says all that are members of the body of Christ are of one body and one part can not say to another that it doesn't need it. 

So IF those in heaven are members of the body of Christ and Paul in scripture says one part can not say to another.. I don't need you... than how can you say that those in heaven don't need us and we don't need them?

Those in heaven are not members of the Body of Christ any longer.  The phrase, "body of Christ"  is never used in the Bible of those in heaven.  It is a phrase Paul coined to illustrate the role of the church on earth.   Those in heaven are no longer members of the Church.

They cannot see us, hear us, they know nothing about what we are doing now.  They are not watching us and they certainly don't hear any prayers.  

And we don't pray to them and they don't intercede for us.

Catholics pray to saints, but authentic, New Testament, Bible-believing followers of Jesus do not. We pray  to God in the Name of Jesus.  God is the object of our prayers, not dead people.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

2 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Those in heaven are not members of the Body of Christ any longer.

I disagree with you. I commend you on answering it. I think you are the first to say no. 

I am not aware of any scriputre that says they are no longer part of the Body of Christ. Can you provide some?

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

I disagree with you. I commend you on answering it. I think you are the first to say no. 

I am not aware of any scriputre that says they are no longer part of the Body of Christ. Can you provide some?

You would actually need Scripture that refers to those in heaven as "the body of Christ."

The phrase is just a metaphor used by Paul to point to how we function as the Church on earth.   It is never used of anyone in heaven.  The Church is not mentioned as being in heaven in any sense, by any title.

The burden of proof isn't on me.  I don't have to prove a negative.  If you cannot find any place where the body of Christ is used to refer to anyone in heaven, then my point stands by default.

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

17 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

You would actually need Scripture that refers to those in heaven as "the body of Christ."

The phrase is just a metaphor used by Paul to point to how we function as the Church on earth.   It is never used of anyone in heaven.  The Church is not mentioned as being in heaven in any sense, by any title.

The burden of proof isn't on me.  I don't have to prove a negative.  If you cannot find any place where the body of Christ is used to refer to anyone in heaven, then my point stands by default.

 

I disagree with the burden of proof. While you are alive you are a member of the body of Christ. That's in scripture. I don't have to proof anything. You claim that when you die you are no longer a part of that body.

scripture says we are part of the body of Christ. That's my stance. 

You claim that changes when you die and you are no longer part of the Body of Christ. So the burden is on you to back up your statement. 

Does scripture say you are removed from the body of Christ when you die?

[simplejeff]

2 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

I disagree with the burden of proof. While you are alive you are a member of the body of Christ.

Show "burden of proof" in the NT, or OT for that matter.  It is written that most people on earth ARE NOT a member, ever, of the body of Christ, not on earth, and never later.

And most prove (admit, confess, tell) that they are not and do not want to be,  when questioned and by their lives.

[Fidei Defensor]

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

You see scripture states

 

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

Now Mary would be a queen? Shes not a man so she cant be called a king.

 

So hence queen mary, since mary was the mother of Jesus and based on the trinity doctrine Jesus is God, we get queen mary the mother of God.

 

Based on Catholicism eschatology the saints will reign in heaven, hence queen of heaven.

 

You then unravel Mariology on two accounts, if we are all given titles of rule (which Scriptures do not markedly express) then I should be a Prince or even King through Christ. Actually because the King of Kings (Revelation 19:11-16) lives in all Christians (Colossians 2:17, Romans 8:10-20, 1 Corinthians 3:16, Hebrews 3:6, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 1 Corinthians 3:17, John 17:20-23) then we all have kingship through Christ. But the fact is that Mary is never given a "queen of heaven" title in Scripture, and nor are any of us Christians given such titles. As for reigning, the context in most of the Scriptures is in the future, "if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us," (2 Timothy 2:12), "Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory," (Romans 8:17), and "To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne." (Revelation 3:21). Most of Scriptures denote our future rulership with and in Christ. The verse you share is somewhat out context, "And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus," (Ephesians 2:6, it says seated). Yes, we are in Christ who rules in Heaven and He is in us (John 17:20-23, 1 John 4:4, 1 John 4:13, John 14:20). However, we still are battling a sinful nature (Romans 7:17), and the Apostle Paul said, "Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely." (1 Corinthians 12:12).

I believe we rule with Christ as the Scriptures say, even now (however this is because we are in Jesus and He in us John 17:20 and less to do with anything we do, its grace from God). But then Mary isn't special, we are all Kings and Queens through Christ. We are Bride of Christ. So then why does Mary get any special title? If all Christians are elevated, why does she have a special title? More than this her title of queen in Catholic Church denotes competition with Christ, rather than submission like she really did in Scripture, "My soul exalts the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave." (Luke 1:47-48). As Roman Catholic Catechism, paragraphs 933-999 state, she is seen as Redeematrix, as co-god and co-redeemer is not sound and infringes on saving work that is only found in Christ Jesus (Acts 4:10-12, John 6:40, John 3:16-19, Romans 10:9-10). In addition there is not perpetual virginity to Mary, "When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and embraced Mary as his wife. But he did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son. And Joseph named him Jesus." (Matthew 1:24-25).

Then what do you do with fact that Jesus told all of us not to take titles at all, "But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called teachers (instructors), for you have one teacher (instructor), the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. ¹Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." (Matthew 23:9-12). I am sorry but because of this passage I am uneasy about taking any title unless Jesus bestows it on me when I go to be with Him in His Kingdom. The fact Mary is given a title by Rome, is disturbing because we aren't even afforded lower titles like Rabbi (Pastor), Teacher, or even Father. I feel uneasy about taking any title remotely close to King, because there is one King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus Christ (Revelation 19:16). He lives in us Christians, and is close to us, but I am not going to presume I have a title unless it is given explicitly, ""When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited. If so, the host who invited both of you will come and say to you, 'Give this person your seat.' Then, humiliated, you will have to take the least important place.But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, 'Friend, move up to a better place.' Then you will be honored in the presence of all the other guests. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." (Jesus, Luke 14:8-11).

As for you verse about us being Kings and Priests, the actual translation by all other Bibles than KJV is, "and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen," (Revelation 1:6) which cross references to, "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light." (1 Peter 2:9). Some information on King James Version Bible, it was commissioned and edited by King James I of England and IV of Scotland who was devout Roman Catholic, son of Mary Stuart who was connected to King Philip II of Spain and his Spanish Inquisition. King James had his version of Bible altered in many parts, this being an example, to honor himself, "kings and priests," rather than just priests. Another good example is how James removed Israel form Joel 3 in his translation (due to his dislike of the Jews being grafted back in) and he had baptism altered in His Bibles because he didn't want to do it. The King James Bible is one of most inaccurate translations because it is edited by a King who wants it to read in favor of himself.  

 

[Fidei Defensor]

Just now, Yowm said:

as well as a gross violation of the First Commandment...

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
(Exo 20:3)
 

Indeed, which Jesus reiterates when Satan asks for worship, "And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve." (Luke 4:8).