Church... {sigh}

[JohnD]

Hebrews 10:23–25 (AV)
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Not to give any an excuse to not go to Church... but does anyone else here feel like most Churches operate in a Kindergarten stage / mentality with regard to the faith, Christian living, instruction and education, personal growth???

Because of pain, affliction, work, and frankly unwillingness... we have gotten out of the habit of going to Church on a regular basis. And now we are on the brink of getting ready to go this morning... and I had to be honest with my beloved... I'm just not looking forward to this. And the usual "it's the devil making every excuse not to go..." comes out, which I would argue it's just our own human nature... the devil has much bigger worries than if we are going to Church this morning or not...

Even as I type neighboring Church bells are ringing. LOL

Lord, show us a sign... LOL

But I am most wondering if this side of ourselves (that which needs the pomp and ritual and robes of religiosity and religious assemblies) does not actually put off potential believers we encounter...

"Yeah, I see what your Jesus requires of you..." or "I see what your beliefs do to you..." from the perspective of the unsaved.

The world is watching and our lives are a testimony to Christ. Do they see in us this judgmental, fake, deluded, sanctimonious pack of wolves dressed like sheep? Or do they see us as beggars like themselves who are trying to show them where we've found bread?

I think of other religious movements (atheism for example) whose teaching permeates out daily lives... humanism, evolution, liberalism... you can't hear a news report or a documentary or just about anything that debatable science is not skewed in their favor and presumed as factual at that. Since we KNOW the universe is billions and billions of years old... that sort of thing.

Don't we do the very same thing in Church?

The division between clergy and laity (not biblical in the New Testament / New Covenant)....

How it would rock the whole freaking world if the pastor sat down in the front pew after announcing "Ye are all priests of God, and now for the next hour, you lead the service... you teach and ask and answer questions."

I know... disorder and pandemonium would reign... because the kingdom of priests have not been taught!

So now I prepare to sit and hold my peace while we go through the motions yet again of worship fellowship and placate the incurable religious nature of fallen mankind in a setting of a country club with the phony pretense of joy to see each other in the name of keeping up the membership rolls...

{SIGH}

Does anyone else get this / feel this?

Anyone?

[Willa]

 My own pastor is an expository Bible teacher and keeps me on the edge of my chair taking notes, underlining in my Bible, and applying what the Holy Spirit is speaking to me.  Praise and worship are only sincere when we are.  Sometimes when I get critical of church I must repent of my bad attitude.  I am criticizing Christ when I knock his Body and His people.  If God speaks to me there, that should be sufficient.  

So if that is the way you feel about  your church, as though it is a country club, you might look for another.  Some Brethren churches do not have formal lrsdership.  Perhaps you should visit those. You might even try worshipping at one that is racially mixed or a small church in a poor part of town to get out of your comfort zone.  But you will never find a perfect one.  So write down the most important thing that you are looking for.

1Co 8:1  Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." This "knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up. 1Co 8:2  If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. 1Co 8:3  But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.

 When I am looking for love in a church, God sends me unlovable people and teaches me to appreciate and care for them--to give them His love.  Knowledge puffs ups, love builds up.   And if I cannot love these people and recognize the needs in their lives, how can I love God?  God usually changes me in a church by the obnoxious, hurtful people He sends my way so that I must rely on Christ in me to love and forgive them them.  

[Jeff2]

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 9:29 AM, JohnD said:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

The Church was under persecution, and many were avoiding the assembly together to avoid something bad happening to them. 

This passage is quite abused today, publically shaming people for not always coming to "Church."

First of all, if you are a believer in Jesus Christ as your Savior; You ARE the Church! You don't "go" to Church.

Secondly, most today that do not go, is not fear of persecution, but because the thing we call "Church" is a miserable failure in most cases.

1). John 13:35, "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Most Fellowships do not show much love towards each other. An example for me would be that most look like the starting bell at the horse race track when dismissed. You hesitate, and you lose! You may be the last parishioner out of the parking lot!

A healthy Church Fellowship wants to be together; to fellowship beyond a few meetings a week. If you love someone, you feel pulled within to be by what you love!

A Church Fellowship that does not love each other, is not really a Fellowship, but a fraud the operates under human power. In many cases, one could get more "Fellowship" from belonging to the Elks, Lion's Club, Mason's. Why do they succeed? Look to the "Church!" 

2) Ephesians 4: 11-13. "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

The assembling of ourselves together is for the purpose of equipping the Saints to do the work of the ministry. Few Fellowships actually do this. The order is... Pay for a hireling to be your leader, and besides the pastor, hire a leader for everything but the nursery and children's Sunday school (a.k.a. "Free Child Care Services." ) Everyone under the Pastoral hireling exists to be the cash cows needed to pay the bills. All attempts to grow the "Church" revolves around getting more cows, so after they grow, they can get more hirelings (pastors) to herd them.

a) If a fellowship is not equipping its members to "do" the ministry, but exists just to be a Group plan Employer where the "hireling" does the work of the ministry and they do not, it is not really a Fellowship. 

b) If the preaching and teaching never moves beyond the basics, and becomes as mundane and predictable as a re-run of "Murder she Wrote," it is not functioning as a Biblical Church Fellowship! Is it any wonder that people are bored, and have better things to do like changing the wheels on their horse!

3) 2 Timothy 4:3, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"

a) Other factors exist today, such as a doctrinally changing "Church." Heathen additions and compromises are sweeping many denominations with Heathen Environmentalism, Easter Egg Hunts, Woman Preachers, acceptance of Homosexuality. The 'Church" is becoming distracted with worldly endeavors and unbiblical compromises.   

b) In many of these cases where "Churches" like this use human manipulation to guilt shame people into coming with the Hebrews passage, and worldly heathenism to draw and keep lukewarm Christians and heathens alike, they cease to be the 'Church' of God.

c) Many Christians have stopped going to these "Churches" listed above because they walk away more frustrated and ignored than if they did not go at all! If going to "Church" makes you more unhappy, more frustrated, and worse off than not going, it is not that YOU have forsaken the assembly, it is that the assembly has forsaken you! 

 

There are Churches that have not compromised doctrine, exist to equip its members to fulfill their ministry, and where people love each other to a large degree, but they are very rare!  The trifecta of a REAL "Church" is hard to find. Sometimes, finding one is impossible. I have experienced a few of them; very few! As I have moved and lived many places, and times have changed, and "Churches" have changed, I am presently without hope where I am. If you find one of the "Real Churches," you will never look for anything else again!

 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Jeff2

[Marilyn C]

On ‎24‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 1:29 AM, JohnD said:

Hebrews 10:23–25 (AV)
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Not to give any an excuse to not go to Church... but does anyone else here feel like most Churches operate in a Kindergarten stage / mentality with regard to the faith, Christian living, instruction and education, personal growth???

 

{SIGH}

Does anyone else get this / feel this?

Anyone?

Hi JohnD,

Yes we certainly do over here. Thus we meet with friends in different settings. Sometimes fellowship, sometimes study, sometimes prayer, sometimes a group and sometimes a couple, etc. The main reason for me was that I was putting my energy into a meeting, (I have CFS) and realised that I would rather spend the small amount of energy and time I had, in discipling others. I have never regretted my decision. These disciples are now discipling others who are then discipling others. Thus it is only a small group that each prays for, guides, as asked, helps in times of need, etc etc.

Real people in real life situations. A big step for some I realise, and we still have friends who go to man`s organised meetings. Did you realise that the format of our meetings only came about a few hundred years ago. It is a lecture type situation and because public, has control by those in power. The message is usually a general type to make people feel better, nothing too heavy or controversial.

So yes I know exactly how you feel.

Marilyn.

[Guest shiloh357]

On 4/23/2017 at 10:29 AM, JohnD said:

Hebrews 10:23–25 (AV)
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Not to give any an excuse to not go to Church... but does anyone else here feel like most Churches operate in a Kindergarten stage / mentality with regard to the faith, Christian living, instruction and education, personal growth???

 

I think it is easy to forget that churches are made up of people of varying degrees of maturity in their walk with the Lord and there are those who are still young in the faith and need to time and teaching to grow.  They are still in the remedial learning stage.   It's kind of like people who have worked for the same company for 15 years forget what it is like to be the new guy on the job and don't have any patience with new hires who are  still learning the job.

The job of nurturing your spiritual growth is your responsibility, not the pastor  and not the Church.   Church is where we go to meet God and to fellowship with other believers of like mind and faith.   There are only two kinds of people who need someone else to feed them:  Infants and the elderly/infirmed.   If you don't fall into either of those two categories, feed yourself.

Sermons are exhortations, not teachings.   The job of a pastor on Sunday morning is to exhort an encourage the congregation.  He is not there to feed you from the pulpit.   He is there to encourage and admonish you as you walk out your own relationship with God.

People often expect more than they have a right to expect from a church and they look down their self-righteous snoot at others they don't feel are as advanced in their walk with the Lord.  

If someone thinks they are just too advanced to rub shoulders with those who are less mature in their faith, if they feel they are just too spiritual to grace others with their presence in church, then maybe they should do the church a favor and stay home.   They would not be a productive or helpful member of that church, and would probably more of a liability than an asset to work of the Kingdom.

[JohnD]

 

 

Well said... in defense of the Church organization.

Only, Christ died for the Church ORGANISM.

[JohnD]

18 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi JohnD,

Yes we certainly do over here. Thus we meet with friends in different settings. Sometimes fellowship, sometimes study, sometimes prayer, sometimes a group and sometimes a couple, etc. The main reason for me was that I was putting my energy into a meeting, (I have CFS) and realised that I would rather spend the small amount of energy and time I had, in discipling others. I have never regretted my decision. These disciples are now discipling others who are then discipling others. Thus it is only a small group that each prays for, guides, as asked, helps in times of need, etc etc.

Real people in real life situations. A big step for some I realise, and we still have friends who go to man`s organised meetings. Did you realise that the format of our meetings only came about a few hundred years ago. It is a lecture type situation and because public, has control by those in power. The message is usually a general type to make people feel better, nothing too heavy or controversial.

So yes I know exactly how you feel.

Marilyn.

[Guest shiloh357]

24 minutes ago, JohnD said:

 

 

Well said... in defense of the Church organization.

Only, Christ died for the Church ORGANISM.

No, my comments had nothing to do with the church "organism."   My comments had to do with people who are lifted up in so much self-righteous pride that they think they are just too knowledgeable or too spiritual to rub shoulders with those that they perceive to be less than them.

[JohnD]

Sunrise sunset...

[Behold]

On 4/23/2017 at 10:29 AM, JohnD said:

Hebrews 10:23–25 (AV)
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Not to give any an excuse to not go to Church... but does anyone else here feel like most Churches operate in a Kindergarten stage / mentality with regard to the faith, Christian living, instruction and education, personal growth???

Because of pain, affliction, work, and frankly unwillingness... we have gotten out of the habit of going to Church on a regular basis. And now we are on the brink of getting ready to go this morning... and I had to be honest with my beloved... I'm just not looking forward to this. And the usual "it's the devil making every excuse not to go..." comes out, which I would argue it's just our own human nature... the devil has much bigger worries than if we are going to Church this morning or not...

Even as I type neighboring Church bells are ringing. LOL

Lord, show us a sign... LOL

But I am most wondering if this side of ourselves (that which needs the pomp and ritual and robes of religiosity and religious assemblies) does not actually put off potential believers we encounter...

"Yeah, I see what your Jesus requires of you..." or "I see what your beliefs do to you..." from the perspective of the unsaved.

The world is watching and our lives are a testimony to Christ. Do they see in us this judgmental, fake, deluded, sanctimonious pack of wolves dressed like sheep? Or do they see us as beggars like themselves who are trying to show them where we've found bread?

I think of other religious movements (atheism for example) whose teaching permeates out daily lives... humanism, evolution, liberalism... you can't hear a news report or a documentary or just about anything that debatable science is not skewed in their favor and presumed as factual at that. Since we KNOW the universe is billions and billions of years old... that sort of thing.

Don't we do the very same thing in Church?

The division between clergy and laity (not biblical in the New Testament / New Covenant)....

How it would rock the whole freaking world if the pastor sat down in the front pew after announcing "Ye are all priests of God, and now for the next hour, you lead the service... you teach and ask and answer questions."

I know... disorder and pandemonium would reign... because the kingdom of priests have not been taught!

So now I prepare to sit and hold my peace while we go through the motions yet again of worship fellowship and placate the incurable religious nature of fallen mankind in a setting of a country club with the phony pretense of joy to see each other in the name of keeping up the membership rolls...

{SIGH}

Does anyone else get this / feel this?

Anyone?

-

For most, going to Church and bible study, Sunday school, .....the usual, is more then enough to satisfy their particular depth of interest regarding , "Christianity".

For others, who are not satisfied with the "usual stuff", and feel restless, even confined in the same situation...........then they need to become involved in the work of the Body of Christ that occurs outside the walls of the Local Church.

Hospital Visitation.

Prison Visitation

Witnessing on the Street.

Door to Door - Sharing the Gospel.

Missionary Trips

Even, getting some type of ministry started, that is a personal ministry.

See, Some read the NT and the words of Christ that say "GO into the world", and they feel a tug.

Some listen to a Missionary talk about giving "love , aid, compassion, and hope", to the Orphans in the Ukraine, and they feel a tug.

Pay attention to your "tugs', as GOD is on the other end of the line.

Let me tell you about my  brother. (Robert)..... He was raised as a boy and teen within the Charismatic circles.....was a "Royal Ranger", grew up in the Assembly of God doctrine, Played Trumpet in the Church, then later Jazz Bass in college,(Belmont-Nashville), where he completed his studies a "Music Major - Business Minor".

Right out of College he is hired by Hewlatt_Packard (HP) as a "middle manager".........making about $80-G a year right out of college.

He has it made....Single, Handsome,  working for HP, and also a good man, honest, trustworthy, Loves Jesus....

So he's there about 2 years-obo, still single, and one Sunday Morning in "Christ Church" (I believe it was)... a Presbyterian Missionary is the "guest", that Sunday AM service.

He spoke for an hour, showed his video, gave his presentation for "$$$$$" Help for the street children, etc.

That morning my Brother became a Missionary. ......was called. 

He instantly resigned from HP  - from $80,000 a year, not knowing what would happen next, .....but he "heard the TUG", and said..."I'LL GO LORD".

That is 20+ years ago.

Today, he organizes and heads the Missionary "Dept" for a Large Presbyterian Denomination .

He Met his Wife Andrea (married a little less then 20 years) on a Missionary Trip.

He has built 2 Churches in Kiev, a soup Kitchen, and has helped thousands of Ukrainian Families, and has a special ministry outreach for the "Orphans" of Kiev., for nearly 2 decades.

He trains "new" Missionaries that want to serve in the field, he also trains Local Pastors.

And by the way, he has 3 Children, all Girls, all born in the Ukraine.:)

Emily, Iris, and Abagail

Isn't God good?  And doesn't God make it all work out for us perfectly,  if we will just LISTEN, OBEY, and BELIEVE?

 

Here is his weblink, if you want to check him out.

---

https://www.mtw.org/missionaries/details/bob-and-andrea-burnham

Edited May 22, 2017 by Behold