Jesus' Return

[Retrobyter]

On 5/14/2017 at 0:48 AM, simplejeff said:

Adults,  scholars, educated ones just don't get it.

Little children already see and recognize all YHWH reveals ......

Just like 2000 years ago, eh ?

Shalom, simplejeff.

Actually, they probably DID recognize Him, but CHOSE not to give up their political positions to accept Him. Power-hungry individuals don't need a lot of encouragement to follow their lusts.

Children, although just as egocentric and narcissistic as adults are, aren't nearly as vulnerable to the techniques to acquire power or position. They can still have their heroes and say, "Wow!"

Edited May 16, 2017 by Retrobyter

[simplejeff]

Why do so many everybody think children are not raised right ?

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Why do so many everybody think children are not raised right ?

Shalom, simplejeff.

It really doesn't matter how children are raised; they are born SINNERS! Even if they are "raised" perfectly, the sin in their lives WILL come out!

There's no Scripture verse that is more misused than Proverbs 22:6:

Proverbs 22:6
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
KJV

This is not a positive promise; it's a NEGATIVE promise! It should be rendered, "'Train' a child in the way HE wants to go: and when he is old, he will NOT stray from it!"

People have been relying upon this badly translated verse and then wonder why their child went astray! The truth is we can do our best by our children, but there's NO guarantee that they will grow up safe from the sin in their own hearts! People - even children - will do what they choose to do, and with a sin nature, that will usually be self-centered, hurtful, and destructive.

On the other hand, if we consistently allow children to "do their own thing," you can BET on them falling into a sinful lifestyle! It's much easier to roll downhill than it is to climb the hill!

[simplejeff]

Study Bible

The Stiff-Necked will Be Destroyed
1A man who hardens his neck after much reproof Will suddenly be broken beyond remedy. 2When the righteous increase, the people rejoice, But when a wicked man rules, people groan. 3A man who loves wisdom makes his father glad, But he who keeps company with harlots wastes his wealth.…

New American Standard Bible

[Retrobyter]

5 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

Everything in the word of God is about Jesus. This is my take:

• Jesus was conceived at Hanukkah (Festival of Lights - Light of the World) - also called the Dedication - A Son was given, dedicated to God's will
• Jesus was born on Feast of Tabernacles (1st Blood covenant with mother)
• Circumcised 8 days later on the 8th day of Tabernacles (2nd blood covenant with the Father in Heaven)
• Died on Passover (3rd blood covenant with the world)
• Was dead during the Feast of Unleavened Bread (dead bread and the Bread of Life was dead)
• Rose on First Fruits (beginning of it at the Waving of the Sheaf - First Fruit of the dead)
• Gave the Law to Moses and the Holy Spirit to the Church on Pentecost
• Leaving: Feast of Trumpets (Rapture and 2nd Coming) - a day known and a day unknown
• Leaving: Day of Atonement (reconciliation - God with Man forever)

If 7 of these 9 events match perfectly the word of God, is there really any evidence the other two won't follow suite in their appointed times as promised in Genesis 1:14?  

 

Just my 2 cents.

Shalom, Abdicate.

I'm not saying what you've noticed about the fulfillment of the mow`adiym is incorrect, but it's still a little too allegorical for my liking. 

His given name is Yeshua`, not "Jesus." "Jesus" is just TOO mispronounced, if you're going to bring the Hebrew feasts and holidays into the discussion. 

Third, somehow I'm sure you're just trying to bring in the Rapture and the 2nd Coming as two separate events, but wouldn't it fit better to recognize them as the ONE event? It simply comes down to the REASON for the "Rapture!" If the reason is to "escape the judgment that God will bring upon the earth," that's not a good enough reason. God's "rapture" is NOT to be considered a "fire escape!"

The "rapture" is a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM as a way for God to gather His people from around the globe, but the destination is NOT "Heaven"; rather, we will be taken THROUGH the "heavens" - the "skies" - to the Middle East to begin the Rescue ("Salvation") of His own people - His own family - the children of Israel, and in particular, the Jews, the children of Y'hudah or Judah.

Just some thoughts to consider.

[Daniel 11:36]

Neither does it fit according to the Bible

[Retrobyter]

On 5/18/2017 at 8:56 AM, inchrist said:

No it wouldnt fit better according to Jewish eschatology. 

Shalom, inchrist.

You mean, "It wouldn't fit better according to INCHRIST'S eschatology!"

 

[Retrobyter]

On 5/18/2017 at 10:07 AM, Daniel 11:36 said:

Neither does it fit according to the Bible

Shalom, Daniel 11:36.

Or, do you mean that it wouldn't fit according to your INTERPRETATION of the Bible?

[Retrobyter]

22 hours ago, inchrist said:

No I mean Jewish Eschatology

On the day of Yom Teruah (Rosh Hashanah), the gates of heaven are opened, the heavenly court convenes and three books are opened.

Shalom, inchrist.

Well, this tells me that this account of Jewish eschatology doesn't draw much from the Scriptures. Yowm Truw`aah (the Day of the Loud-Shofar-Blast) is described in Numbers 29:

Numbers 29:1-40
1 And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.
2 And ye shall offer a burnt offering for a sweet savour unto the LORD; one young bullock, one ram, and seven lambs of the first year without blemish:
3 And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil, three tenth deals for a bullock, and two tenth deals for a ram,
4 And one tenth deal for one lamb, throughout the seven lambs:
5 And one kid of the goats for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you:
6 Beside the burnt offering of the month, and his meat offering, and the daily burnt offering, and his meat offering, and their drink offerings, according unto their manner, for a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD.
7 And ye shall have on the tenth day of this seventh month an holy convocation; and ye shall afflict your souls: ye shall not do any work therein:
8 But ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the LORD for a sweet savour; one young bullock, one ram, and seven lambs of the first year; they shall be unto you without blemish:
9 And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil, three tenth deals to a bullock, and two tenth deals to one ram,
10 A several tenth deal for one lamb, throughout the seven lambs:
11 One kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the sin offering of atonement, and the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering of it, and their drink offerings.
12 And on the fifteenth day of the seventh month ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work, and ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days:
13 And ye shall offer a burnt offering, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; thirteen young bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year; they shall be without blemish:
14 And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil, three tenth deals unto every bullock of the thirteen bullocks, two tenth deals to each ram of the two rams,
15 And a several tenth deal to each lamb of the fourteen lambs:
16 And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.
17 And on the second day ye shall offer twelve young bullocks, two rams, fourteen lambs of the first year without spot:
18 And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
19 And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering thereof, and their drink offerings.
20 And on the third day eleven bullocks, two rams, fourteen lambs of the first year without blemish;
21 And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
22 And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, and his drink offering.
23 And on the fourth day ten bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year without blemish:
24 Their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
25 And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.
26 And on the fifth day nine bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year without spot:
27 And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
28 And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, and his drink offering.
29 And on the sixth day eight bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year without blemish:
30 And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
31 And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.
32 And on the seventh day seven bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year without blemish:
33 And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
34 And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.
35 On the eighth day ye shall have a solemn assembly: ye shall do no servile work therein:
36 But ye shall offer a burnt offering, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD: one bullock, one ram, seven lambs of the first year without blemish:
37 Their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullock, for the ram, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
38 And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, and his drink offering.
39 These things ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.
40 And Moses told the children of Israel according to all that the LORD commanded Moses.
KJV

Do you see ANYTHING about their deeds written in ONE book, let alone THREE?!

Quote

Yom Teruah is also known as Yom Ha Din ( The Day of Judgement)

The Jewish Talmud teaches that on Yom Teruah God will begin His judgement of all people and conclude it on Yom Kippur

Please note: Rosh Hashanah 16b / http://juchre.org/talmud/rosh/rosh1.htm#16b

“ R. Kruspedai said in the name of R. Johanan: Three books are opened [in heaven] on New Year, one for the thoroughly wicked,24 one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for the intermediate. The thoroughly righteous are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of life; the thoroughly wicked are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of death;25 the doom of the intermediate is suspended from New Year till the Day of Atonement; if they deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of life; if they do not deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of death. Said R. Abin, What text tells us this? — Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.26 ‘Let them be blotted out from the book — this refers to the book of the wicked. ‘Of life — this is the book of the righteous. ‘And not be written with the righteous’ — this is the book of the intermediate. R. Nahman b. Isaac derives it from here: And if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written,27 ‘Blot me, I pray thee’ — this is the book of the wicked. ‘Out of thy book’ — this is the book of the righteous. ‘Which thou has written’ — this is the book of the intermediate.” 

Well, here's a different take on the same Talmudic info:

Quote

Rosh Hashanah has many names including: Yom Harat Olam/The day of the World's Inception, Yom Hazikaron/The day of Remembrance and Yom Hadin/The Day of Judgment.

I began with Valerie Cox’s poem this evening because tonight I want to explore with you the meaning and implications of Yom Hadin/The Day of Judgment as the header for the New Year.

The name comes from the Talmud where it says that on Rosh Hashanah God judges all of Creation. This ancient myth is played out the most explicitly when we pray Unetanatokef…

The imagery is this: God sits on his throne with the heavenly retinue behind him and two big books before him: The Sefer Hamavet/The Book of Death and Sefer Hachayim/The Book of Life. We, God’s subjects, pass before him and are judged; who shall live or who shall die, who by water, who by fire, etc.

For many of us, including me, this is the most challenging aspect of the Holiday Liturgy for lots of reasons. First, the myth of God as king is dead. In the ancient world a king was a good projection screen for God – they were powerful, scary, awe-inspiring figures. But in our age kings are impotent figureheads, not an image we would naturally relate to God!

Even if one can work with king as metaphor for God, the idea that God judges everyone and decides our fate in the year ahead is not only unbelievable to us, it also unbearable given the tragedies big and large that happens every year.

Did God blow up the deep water rig in the gulf and cause the oil to spill? Did God choose the cancer for our loved ones who struggled or maybe died from it in the last year? Does God decide who shall live and who shall die on the battlefields in Afghanistan and Iraq? God in history is, for many of us, a mystery we simply cannot grasp.

So, when it comes to Yom Hadin, the Traditional understanding of this day – God as judge sitting on his throne, literally judging us, simply doesn’t ring true. What is true however is that some of us won’t be here next year. We might change the list of possible calamities – who by fire, who by water to who by cancer, who by financial disaster, and so forth; how ever we characterize it, the scary potent fact of our finitude is a real fact of life.

In fact, the one year that we actually edited unitonatokef out of the prayer book, people were livid! Why? Because we get that as dead as the old myths may be, they still carry a truth that we need to hear: stuff happens, life is precious and precarious, we are finite and have no time to waist, no time to loose.

Well, this tells me that many Jews don't see this Day of Judgment as a one-time future event but rather see this as a yearly event, that there are only TWO books, the Book of Life and the Book of Death, and that we are only judged for the past year, with an anticipation/foreboding of what the New Year will bring. Those whose fates are decided after the ten days of awe are written in one of the TWO books, on Yowm Kippur, the Day of Atonement.

Quote

In Jewish Eschatology, that on Rosh Hashanah 3 books are opened (1) the righteous will be sealed for eternal life, (2) the wicked who will be sealed for perdition, and (3) the intermediates will have ten days left to repent ( 10 days of awe), when their fates will finally be decided on Yom Kippur ( Day of Atonement).

Daniel 7:9-10

“As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.”

The talmud also teaches that on Rosh Hashanah is the resurrection 

Rosh Hashanah 16b / http://juchre.org/talmud/rosh/rosh1.htm#16b

"It has been taught: Beth Shammai say, There will be three groups at the Day of Judgment 28 — one of thoroughly righteous, one of thoroughly wicked, and one of intermediate. The thoroughly righteous will forthwith be inscribed definitively as entitled to everlasting life; the thoroughly wicked will forthwith be inscribed definitively as doomed to Gehinnom, as it says. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.29 The intermediate will go down to Gehinnom"

Beth Shammai - is quoting Daniel 12:2

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
 

Isaiah 26:19

"But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead."

Yom Teruah is also known as The Day of Shouting (Teruah)

Jeremiah spoke of the Lord’s Day of Judgement beginning on Yom Teruah, the Day of Shouting:

‘I am calling down a sword on all who live on the earth,’ declares the Lord Almighty...’The Lord will roar from on high; he will thunder from his holy dwelling and roar mightily against his land. He will shout like those who tread the grapes, shout against all who live on the earth.’ Jeremiah 25:29-30

 

It is best NOT to rely upon the Talmud for any definitive information, except what the modern Jews actually believe.

First, truw`aah is not just "shouting"; it is also "sounding loudly" a shofar or "ram's horn trumpet." In fact, everywhere it is mentioned in the Torah, it is associated with shofars.

Even in Joshua 6, the people are instructed to "shout" IN TUNE WITH the shofars! This wasn't an arbitrary "shout"; it was SINGING the same note as the shofars were playing, reduplicating the fundamental frequency! Through their harmonic resonance and sympathetic vibration, God brought down the walls of Yericho! I've heard Sandi Patty once say, "Really, singing high is just like screaming on pitch."

The Scriptures you have quoted, however, are Scriptures you can rely upon without fear of contradiction.

Regarding Daniel 12:2, we've been shown by both John (Rev. 20:1-15) and Paul (1 Cor. 15:20-28) that these events are separated by a long (a thousand-year) period in which the Messiah Yeshua` is reigning on the earth, and if you follow the clues, Peter also said the same thing (2 Peter 3:3-13).

Regarding the "ten days of awe," during the Millennium, it will probably be more like 100 YEARS of awe:

Isaiah 65:20
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child (childhood) shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
KJV

[Retrobyter]

On 5/11/2017 at 10:27 AM, When Is Jesus Coming? said:

Jesus' Return

Did God leave us information as to Jesus returning at Tabernacles?:

Deuteronomy 16:16 
Three times a year all your men must appear before the LORD your God at the place he will choose: at the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the Festival of Weeks and the Festival of Tabernacles. No one should appear before the LORD empty-handed:

Jesus fulfilled Passover when He died and He also fulfilled the Festival of Weeks when the Holy Spirit was sent but look at what Jesus said and did about Tabernacles:

John 7:2 & 8 
But when the Jewish Festival of Tabernacles was near, [Jesus said] “You go to the festival. I am not going up to this festival, because my time has not yet fully come.”

John 7:10-11 
However, after his brothers had left for the festival, he went also, not publicly, but in secret. Now at the festival the Jewish leaders were watching for Jesus and asking, “Where is he?”

John 7:14 
Not until halfway through the festival did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach.

Tabernacles is on day 15 month 7 and then lasts for 8 days, Jesus missed this day completely, saying it was not the right time for Him.

Shalom, "When Is Jesus Coming?"

The Festival of Booths ("Tabernacles") or "Suqqowt" (often written as "Sukkot") is certainly A time in which He could return, but I don't find anything in Scripture that REQUIRES that being the time of His coming.

Yeshua` DID, however, say WHEN He would return, in a "left-handed manner":

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (Dan. 9:27)
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

Yeshua` quoted from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:22-26
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner (Hebrew: l-ro'sh pinnaah = "into-[the]-head of-[the]-angle" = "into-[the]-capstone").
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now (Hebrew: howshiy`aah naa', transliterated into Greek as "Hosanna"), I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD (Hebrew: Baaruwkh habaa' b-sheem YHWH = "Welcome, the Comer in-[the]-name/authority of-YHWH"): we have blessed (welcomed) you out of the house of the LORD.
KJV

Therefore, Yeshua` was telling the Jews of Jerusalem that they would no longer see Him until they could WELCOME Him back as YHWH'S Messiah!

What does that mean for "Christians?" It simply means that we need to HELP and ENCOURAGE Israel to welcome Yeshua` as YHWH'S Messiah! That means that we need to ENCOURAGE and SUPPORT efforts such as Jews for Jesus, Christians for Israel, Zionist movements that are Christian based, and Messianic Jews, all of whom are attempting to re-introduce Israel to their Messiah (who was rejected by their ancestors)! When they can welcome Him back - truly welcome Him - then He will return.

So, Christians can encourage our Lord to return by helping the Jews learn who their Messiah was and is, introducing them to Him, and helping them to WELCOME Him back!