The C0uncil 0f Trent

[Guest]

" when you die on earth you do not stop being part of the Body of Christ, so those in heaven are pure. They've been purified by the fires of purgatory. "

 

Where is this fire of purgatory? Is it floating around in the "spirit world"?  How does one get past the chasm? If one isnt ready for heaven;one would be with the rich man in hell. 

When we are saved by the Holy Spirit drawing us in and coming to dwell in us; we put on Christ' righteousness and not our own!  Catholicism is a works righteous false religion.

One will either defend Christ and his truth or the RC church.  The two do not strive  in accordance.

1Peter 1: 15But just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do, 16for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” 17Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives in reverent fear during your temporary stay on earth.…

1) There is no way that we as spirit beings residing in [corrupted flesh] can be  holy as The LORD. We [put on] the righteousness of Christ.

2) Notice how 17 states that we live our lives in reverent fear during our [temporary stay] on earth.

Scripture doesnt state this "adding to" anywhere >>> :And those left behind will pray for you( and give the priest some money) to make you more pure so that when you leave  purgatory ;you are more holy in Gods sight!

Reverence is not only a state of mind but the state of mind dictates our actions. We strive in obedience [towards holiness] to the law . Hebrew 10:14because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are sanctified. 15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First He says: 16“This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, says the Lord. I will put My Laws in their hearts and inscribe them on their minds.”…  WE STRIVE BUT WE NEVER GET THERE!  That is the whole point! Christ IS HOLY and we are counted HOLY because of Christ and not of ourselves.

Here we see that Paul is reading the foolish Galatians the riot act! They got a good schooling kinda like foolish catholics get all the time . ...............Those who have ears to hear........

Faith and Belief
1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?…

 

Catholics are always striving to be counted worthy because catholics are not assured of their salvation. They work and work and work just as lds , jw , and sda do! How exhausting it would be/is to not believe that Christ PAID IT ALL.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

 

Christ alone >through faith alone> in grace alone.

 

Paul goes on to say more to those who have ears to hear.....

Galatians 4:8-12 ⁸Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. ⁹But now that you know God-or rather are known by God-how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? ¹⁰You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! ¹¹I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. ¹²I plead with you, brothers and sisters, become like me, for I became like you. You did me no wrong.

The ABC’s Of Salvation

A. Christ DIED for you – Romans 5:8
B. Christ PAID your sins in Full – 2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 Peter 2:24
C. BELIEVE(Trust In Completely) on Christ ALONE for salvation – John 3:16, Acts 16:31, Ephesians 2:8,9, 1 Cor. 15:1-4

“For the wages of sin is death(Eternal Torment In Hell & The Lake of Fire); But the Gift of God is eternal life through [Jesus Christ Our Lord]”. Romans 6:23

 

 

 

 

 

 

[warrior12]

40 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Hopfully this post doesn't break the servers

cheers and sorry for chasing the rabbits. 

My reply to your statement would be .   Jesus paid it all, paid it at the CROSS.   It was done there, and the believer assurance is found there.   Hope you can come to see that and nothing else is needed as long you have submitted your life to him and rest in his bosom.  Leave all your burdens there, at the feet of the master.  

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

6 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

My reply to your statement would be .   Jesus paid it all, paid it at the CROSS.   It was done there, and the believer assurance is found there.   Hope you can come to see that and nothing else is needed as long you have submitted your life to him and rest in his bosom.  Leave all your burdens there, at the feet of the master.  

I agree with you. 

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

I think the trail of blood has been recommended before. So I will check it out. 

I do have one question for clarification though. The list of groups in the second paragraph. Are these what would be called the true believers and not irregular Churches?

Shalom, Judas.

Yes, but let's get one thing straight right away. Not everyone in that list had the same belief system although all believed in justification by faith through blood (Yeshua`s sacrifice) by God's grace alone. They did not all have as strong an opinion on other points as another might have had. Consequently, that's the reason for the various names down through human history.

Allow me to point out two passages of Scripture that are VITAL to a proper understanding of God's justification:

The first is Yeshua`s parable in Luke 18:

Luke 18:9-14
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
KJV

and, the second is in Paul's second letter to the believers at Korinth:

2 Corinthians 5:4-21
4 For we that are in this tabernacle (the "tent" of our temporary condition) do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest (down payment) of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour (work), that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature (creation): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (God who has exchanged places with us through Yeshua` the Messiah), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (the service of exchanging places);
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself (God was in the Messiah exchanging places himself with the world), not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (the message about exchanging places).
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead (on the Messiah's behalf), be ye reconciled to God (exchange places with God).
21 For he (God) hath made him (the Messiah) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (in the Messiah).
KJV

In the parable, it's important to know who the players were: The Pharisee (or Paruwsh in Hebrew/Aramaic) was a "Separatist"; that is, he was of the elite, religious right of his day. He was considered the "best of the best," was always giving to the poor, and kept Moses' Law to the nth degree. Many times in the Gospels, Yeshua` shows them for who they were in their hearts, but to the average person, he was a paramount of virtue!

The publican, on the other hand, was considered a traitor by the Jews. He was typically a Jew himself, but he was also a tax-collector for the Romans, who not only rewarded him generously but also turned a blind eye to the injustices he would perform against the Jewish citizens. They were typically money-hungry extortioners, keeping back for themselves large portions of the over-payments for the taxes that the Romans required. They were truly despised by the general public.

Both of these men went to the Temple to pray, but notice the difference: The "Separatist" consistently used the word "I"; it was all about himself! He bragged to God how good HE was, thanking God He had made him that way!

The tax-collector, however, had faced up to the truth that he was indeed a sinner, not deserving of God's mercy, but knew no where else to turn. He didn't even so much as to look up to the sky but pounded on his own chest and said, "God be merciful to me a sinner." His focus was on GOD!

Yeshua` has told us that there are two types of people in this world. Those who trust in their works to save them, and those who know that works CAN'T save them; they can only fall on God's mercy! However, those who fall on the mercy of a merciful God are the ones who are justified by God.

NT:2643 katallagee (kat-al-lag-ay'); from NT:2644; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. restoration to (the divine) favor:
KJV - atonement, reconciliation (-ing).

NT:2644 katallassoo (kat-al-las'-so); from NT:2596 and NT:236; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference:
KJV - reconcile.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

In the other passage of Scripture, it's a little more hidden (why? who knows), but God has made His justification available to human beings by an exchange of positions: We, in spite of our sins, are exchanged into the "righteousness of God in the Messiah," because the Messiah Yeshua`, in spite of His righteousness - or rather, in spite of God's righteousness in Him - was exchanged into "our sins" when He was nailed to the cross. This gave God the Father the freedom within His own holiness and perfect righteousness to call us His children. The punishment for our sins was already provided through the punishment on His Son.

I said all that to say this:

God's true believers are those who know this justification from God. The "irregular churches" are stuck in the mentality that we must DO something to gain God's acceptance. THAT'S what differentiates the two.

[existential mabel]

http://englishhistoryauthors.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/romanising-celtic-christian-church.html

[existential mabel]

https://www.aol.com/article/2009/02/10/buy-your-way-to-heaven-the-catholic-church-brings-back-indulgen/1455700/

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, inchrist said:

No, thats not the point, of cause we can get there if we walk in the power of the Holy Spirit, but of cause not if you going you walk in the flesh.

I love the way you used this verse:

 

 

Turn to luke 19:11-27

the third servant used a similar speech to yours

. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’

Christ would have this to say:

 His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’

One could substitute money with faith and interests with works.

I bet the 3rd servant went around calling the other 2 servants heretics for doing "works" and preaching how we are "justified by grace alone"

 

 

 

Perhaps you didnt understand me properly. Faith w/o works is dead. Im not saying works in itself is a bad thing. We do work but it is not TO BE SAVED but because we are saved. There is a vast difference in the HEART CONDITION  between the two.  RC is a works righteous false religion .

[Guest]

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

This is not just a catholic concept, but also a jewish concept.

 

 

Actually you need to get your facts straight a little....

https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-does-the-church-teach-that-works-can-obtain-salvation

By the way they dont teach that. 

My facts are straight. Thank you for your concern

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, inchrist said:

No, thats not the point, of cause we can get there if we walk in the power of the Holy Spirit, but of cause not if you going you walk in the flesh.

I love the way you used this verse:

 

 

Turn to luke 19:11-27

the third servant used a similar speech to yours

. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’

Christ would have this to say:

 His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’

One could substitute money with faith and interests with works.

I bet the 3rd servant went around calling the other 2 servants heretics for doing "works" and preaching how we are "justified by grace alone"

 

 

 

No relevance.

[warrior12]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

So while you guys preach abc's of Grace, you actually forgot the d of grace.

If you read the conversation between Judas and I , you would see why i pointed to the  cross as the finish work and that man do not have to be in any state of purgatory or such.  Off  course the believer has to read and keep hearing the word and strive to enter in the narrow gate as to the graces ect.