How do the believers in Christ differ from Israel?

[Your closest friendnt]

On 7/3/2017 at 5:44 PM, Swords99 said:

True, believers will have a glorified body like Christ's which will go through doors and windows and be from one place to the next in a second as Christ demonstrated after His resurrection.

The Jews never had a heavenly kingdom promised to them but an earthly one where Christ will be their king and rule in Jerusalem.

The disciples had past experiences of Jesus Christ, when he caught up with their boat and when he walk on the water. 

Another time on the mountain of configuration, JESUS was change in front of their eyes, and he joined Moses and Elias. 

Those events were before the Cross, and happened in an open space. 

After the resurrection the disciples experience something new, JESUS appeared to them in a secured inviroment. 

They said that the doors were locked, and the windows closed. 

And sudendly JESUS CHRIST appeared in the midst of them, the eye witness said: " he appeared and stand in his mids of them". 

For the first time the disciples experience something like that. 

The time by the lake, they did not witness how it all happened with Jesus, that he ented up by their boat, and they thought they were seeing a gost, or a spirit. 

In the mount of configuration they witness JESUS transformation, but that was an open air event.

After the resurrection the disciples were the witness of something else, everything happened within the secured house. 

JESUS CHRIST just appeared in the mist of them, he was not just in the Spirit, he ate with them, he ask them to touch him, and show his wounds. 

Later the disciples gave witness that they touched him and he was not just a gost, he was the same as he was before he died, in flesh and bones. 

Did he have any blood? 

Did he have artireis and hart that pump and veins, did he breath, did he need.oxysen . 

Did he had loungs,.....

We can look at the people who were raised from the dead before, but with Jesus is different. 

This is not the eye witness testimony, and they never sircoulated those frivolous imaginations, that the disciples witness JESUS CHRIST emmerging through the walls, and walking towards them. 

This is the Antichrist sirculation to claimed among the non Believers, and to  reinforce the belief of the enemies of the Gospel that JESUS  body was stolen, and he never raised from the dead to go back to his body, and that the JESUS his disciples witness was just his gost. 

Flesh and bones cannot go through walls, that's what the Antichrist claims. 

Whom do you serve, with this kind of non disciples claims. 

You may think it promotes JESUS, really?

 

JESUS raised Lasarus from the dead four days after he died, and everyone witness it, not only the smell of his decaing body, but also his resurrection. 

JESUS had a reason to raise someone from the dead so late after he had died, which has never happened before. 

In the past everyone who was raised from the dead it was around the first day of their death, but Lasarus four days after paved the way, that no one can say that JESUS CHRIST was impossible to be raised from the dead, because no one was raised from the dead after that long period of time. 

JESUS CHRIST raise Lasarus four days after. 

So when the disciples preach that Jesus was raised three days after his death, people believe it.

 

[Retrobyter]

On 6/28/2017 at 8:22 PM, Revelation Man said:

THIS QUESTION WAS ASKED ME ONCE.........Can a person be a child of God just because they are a direct descendant of Abraham, but have rejected Christ? Isn't Israel and the church one and the same?


MY ANSWER & EXEGESIS ON THE CHURCH AND ISRAEL 

No, but you can be a child of Abraham and. There is a Spiritual Abraham and Physical Abraham, both can be spoken of in various ways. So when Paul speaks of BLIND ISRAEL.........Is he speaking of Abraham's descendants or not ? HELLO.....You just inferred they aren't Israel, but Paul says they are Israel, they are JUST BLIND. 

Paul is trying to point something out by using a demonstration, and its not being picked up on by you guys. He is pointing out ISRAEL HAS BEEN BLINDED for an appointed time. Then he speaks about Israels true seed being of the BELIEVERS LIKENED UNTO ABRAHAM..............Well, OK, we understand this. But where does it say that Israel are not descendants of Abraham, the chosen people of God ? Oh, I get it, you think because Paul said not all Israel is Israel that they are not Gods chosen people....... BUT....... you missed something right in front of your eyes. 


Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (You see, they are still ISRAEL IN THE FLESH....This seems to not be understood.) 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises...

We have always understood that NOT ALL JEWS GO TO HEAVEN. Why do you not understand that this is a forgone conclusion? Many of Israels Kings were wicked and are in hell or will be in hell shortly, SO....EL CORRECTO, not all who are born unto the SEED of Abraham are GODS PEOPLE, but those who live by FAITH and OBEY God are His true SEED. That has always been understood, BUT...........Israel is still the chosen people of God, and He will call them to repentance before the Day of the Lord, thus ALL ISRAEL will be Saved. This is EASILY PROVED. Follow me here for a brief time:

As a matter of fact, there is an inference here in Romans 9 that seems to be missed by many. Paul is speaking of Issac, he says the ELDER shall serve the YOUNGER. Do you not get that in this very chapter that Paul is telling Israel that God is taking the mantle away from the ELDER (Israel) and making him sever the YOUNGER (GENTILE CHURCH)?

Paul talks to the Romans, trying to tell them not to get the big head, thinking that they are special in comparison with the Jewish peoples, for it is Gods will being done, not that the GENTILES ARE SPECIAL. Then he points out what Hosea says in verse 25.....

Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee (Hosea), I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her (Gentiles/Church) beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved. 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 

DO YOU SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR THINKING BROTHER? Paul is calling the UNBELIEVING nation of Israel....ISRAEL in verse 31 !! It seems you are confused as to what Paul is speaking about here, he is speaking about the ELDER (Israel) serving the YOUNGER (Gentile/Church) because God elected them to serve Him, just like he elected Issac instead of Esau !! 


Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (AGAIN, Paul calls them ISRAEL.)

Then the next 10 or so verses speaks about Faith in Christ, then Paul says this in verse 12:

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

NO WHERE is Paul saying that the Jews and the Gentiles/Greeks are the same, only that they ALL COME TO GOD/CHRIST VIA FAITH in like manner, Paul still called Israel ISRAEL in verse one in this very Chapter. In the previous chapter Paul is pointing out that the ELDER will serve the YOUNGER. Israel's mantel is given to the Gentiles. 

The next few verses, Paul speaks about how hearing the word creates faith, and we have to have preachers sent to preach to hear, and that whosoever shall call upon the name of Jesus will be saved etc. etc. THEN Paul says this:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

This is Paul, saying the MANTLE has been passed from Israel, to the Gentiles, the ELDER is serving the YOUNGER because God chose it that way, because He saw unbelief in the ELDER, and the YOUNGER BELIEVED God. Thus God will use them to PROVOKE ISRAEL....There it is again, Paul is differentiating the TWO right here. He is saying that God will use the Gentiles to provoke ISRAEL TO JEALOUSY !! There is a Gentile Church and an Israeli Nation. 


Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. { Not talking about the CHURCH HERE !! }

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot (know) ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. {God isn't speaking about the CHURCH HERE}

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. { Paul is speaking about TWO ENTITIES, the Gentile Church and ISRAEL !! }

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (ISRAEL'S)

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?  { Paul is still speaking about ISRAEL in a SINGULAR MANNER vs the Gentile World or Gentile Church (With a few Messianic Jews). Israel as a Nation, not Israel as the Church and the JEWS !!! You have to read man, and quit listening to MEN WHO DECEIVE, it is right here in scriptures, dig it out. }

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, IF THEY abide not still in unbelief, shall be GRAFTED IN: for God is able to graft them in again. {THEY = Israel}

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? {Paul is speaking of TWO ENTITIES again, the Church and Israel, the Olive Tree is their own Olive tree, the Gentiles are the Wild Olive tree that has been GRAFTED IN.}

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL THE  fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 

Paul is saying here, hey Gentile/Roman Church, do not get the BIG HEAD thinking you are better than my Brother Jews, blindness IN PART has come upon them, only until the fullness of the GENTILES IS COME IN, or until the time of the YOUNGER (Gentile Church) is finished. There are some Messianic Jews and there will always be a few, thus Israel is blinded IN PART, but there will come a time, when the Gentile Church's mission is finished (RAPTURE), Then God WILL LIFT Israels blindness, and Elijah will turn Israel BACK TO GOD, Before the Day of the LORD !!! Amen. And ALL ISRAEL will be Saved. Meaning Israel as a Country comes back to God, and God blesses them and protects them, because they accept Jesus as THEIR MESSIAH !! 

26 And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: .....Jacob !!! NOT CHURCH.

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. { Notice the TWO ENTITIES AGAIN ? Its a trend man..............If you just take notice, its there. They are/ISRAEL/JACOB and FOR YOUR SAKE/The Gentile Church of Rome, its a plain as day man.}

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Via the Gentile Churches MERCY, God will thus ultimately have Mercy upon Israel. They will remember the Church's sayings, and they will remember that Jesus was THE CHURCHES GOD, and that they said all of these things will come to pass, and when Paul's writings start coming to pass, and Revelation comes to pass, and when the Church is Raptured via 100's of millions of CHRISTIAN'S DYING AT ONCE, Israel/Jews will understand, and when Elijah comes back preaching this SAME GOSPEL, Israel will understand fully the error of their ways, it will HIT THEM LIKE A BRICK........BOOM, Jesus is our Messiah, the scales will be lifted off, and ALL ISRAEL (As a Nation) will be Saved. Or turn to God.

We can't take verses out of context like There is no Gentile or Jew, that only means both come to God in the EXACT SAME WAY, Via Jesus Christs Blood............We see Paul speaking throughout Romans chapters 9-11 about the Gentile Church and Israel as SEPARATE ENTITIES continually, yet some try to force THE CHURCH IS ISRAEL false doctrine onto the world. It is a documented FALSEHOOD, and anyone that studies it will understand that, I call it Christians being lazy and not researching the subject in depth. 

The Church is not ISRAEL..........And Paul never says this, he is ONLY SHOWING how all men must come to God via FAITH ALONE, after all, it is by Faith in Christ Jesus that we are SAVED, not by Works, lest any man should boast. 

AMEN.

Shalom, Revelation Man.

I've been trying to figure out how best to answer your post, because there are SEVERAL errors in your thinking that are getting in the way. 

First of all, NO ONE "goes to Heaven." So, when you said, "We have always understood that NOT ALL JEWS GO TO HEAVEN," this is a MAJOR blunder! Again, one is not to anticipate "going to Heaven"; one is to anticipate the RESURRECTION! Shall all Jews (or more generally, all children of Israel) be RESURRECTED for the Kingdom when the King-Anointed (the Messiah) returns? YES! Will they all go into the Kingdom to participate in its blessings? NO! This is hard for Gentile Christians to understand, let alone accept!

Look, there was ALWAYS a small (sometimes, not so small) group of the children of Israel who were known as "bneey Bliya`al," or "sons of Belial," and who OUTRIGHT REJECTED YHWH their God and decided to worship other gods!

On the other hand, there has always been a remnant who have loved YHWH their God and wanted to please Him. Like Nicodemus, they did the best they knew how, but had NO TRUE KNOWLEDGE of God's Son, Yeshua`, who was declared to be the Messiah. Oh, later in history they may know that the Christians believe in a God named "Jesus Christ," but they don't know anything about Him! Indeed, when discussed and they learn that Christians believe in a TRINITY, a plurality of God, they stick to the Scriptures and reject the notion because they read,

Deuteronomy 6:4-5
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
KJV

They may even believe that a Messiah will come and provide God's Kingdom, but they DON'T KNOW who that is going to be! And yet, they are the Messiah's FAMILY who have tried to obey God in all that they knew how to do. God is not going to just "send them to hell!" INTRODUCTIONS are in order! Zechariah (Z'kharyahu) tells us,

Zechariah 12:7-13:2
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
KJV

And, as I've brought up before, these four names, Daaviyd, Naataan, Leeviy, and ha-Shim`iy, are found in the lineage of Yeshua in Luke 3:

Luke 3:23-31
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
KJV

This is easier to see in the Complete Jewish Bible, the CJB:

Zechariah 12:9-13:2
9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim; 
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”

They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves. 

13:1 When that day comes, a spring will be opened up for the house of David and the people living in Yerushalayim to cleanse them from sin and impurity. 2 “When that day comes,” says Adonai-Tzva’ot, “I will cut off the very names of the idols from the land, so that no one even remembers them any more. I will also expel the [false] prophets and the spirit of uncleanness from the land; 
CJB

Luke 3:23-31
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli, 
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef, 
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai, 
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah, 
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri, 
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er, 
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi, 
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim, 
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David, 
CJB

Therefore, this is talking about a time AFTER the Resurrection when all these families shall be united together and see what their own great grandchildren have done to their Heir to the Throne of David!

I've got to stop there for now, but I will continue...

[Revelation Man]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Revelation Man.

I've been trying to figure out how best to answer your post, because there are SEVERAL errors in your thinking that are getting in the way. 

First of all, NO ONE "goes to Heaven." So, when you said, "We have always understood that NOT ALL JEWS GO TO HEAVEN," this is a MAJOR blunder! Again, one is not to anticipate "going to Heaven"; one is to anticipate the RESURRECTION! Shall all Jews (or more generally, all children of Israel) be RESURRECTED for the Kingdom when the King-Anointed (the Messiah) returns? YES! Will they all go into the Kingdom to participate in its blessings? NO! This is hard for Gentile Christians to understand, let alone accept!

There will be Jews that go to hell just like there will be Gentiles that go to hell, thus All Jews will not go to Heaven. This is proved by the parable of the Great gulf, where Jesus told the man he could not take a message to a person in hell, also Jesus told the Pharisees they were of their father SATAN. Not everyone will be Resurrected in the First Resurrection, many/maybe most, will be resurrected a the Second Resurrection. So many Gentiles and Jews are going to hell, now as to what you believe I can not attest to that, I just know the facts. Without the Blood of Jesus covering your sins a person, Jew or Gentile, is going to hell. I don't make blunders as per the scripture. I listen to the Holy Spirit.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Revelation Man

[Swords99]

1 minute ago, Revelation Man said:

There will be Jews that go to hell just like there will e Gentiles that go to hell, thus All Jews will not go to Heaven. This is proved by the parable of the Great gulf, where Jesus told they man he could not take a message to person in hell, also Jesus told the Pharisees they were of their father SATAN. Not everyone will be Resurrected in the First Resurrection, many/maybe most, will b resurrected a the Second Resurrection. So many Gentiles and Jews are going to hell, now as to what you believe I can not attest to that, I just know the facts. Without the Blood of Jesus covering your sins a person, Jew or Gentile, is going to hell. I don't make blundsers as per the scripture. I listen to the Holy Spirit.

 

 

Jews do not have a heavenly kingdom. They are waiting for their King/Messiah to come and set up His earthly kingdom in Jerusalem.  This is the gospel of the kingdom which will be preached during the tribulation via the 144,000 Jewish males. The Jewish remnant during the Tribulation also have an earthly kingdom.

You are correct in that only believing Jews go to heaven, because they are now Christians.

No Jew gets a free ticket just because they are born Jewish. ALL must come to saving faith in Christ. There is only ONE plan of salvation for both Jew and Gentile.

 

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, Swords99 said:

Jews do not have a heavenly kingdom. They are waiting for their King/Messiah to come and set up His earthly kingdom in Jerusalem.  This is the gospel of the kingdom which will be preached during the tribulation via the 144,000 Jewish males. The Jewish remnant during the Tribulation also have an earthly kingdom.

You are correct in that only believing Jews go to heaven, because they are now Christians.

No Jew gets a free ticket just because they are born Jewish. ALL must come to saving faith in Christ. There is only ONE plan of salvation for both Jew and Gentile.

 

Messianic Jews will be Raptured, most Jews will not be Raptured because they have been blinded until the "Time of the Gentiles be come in" (Church Age is over/Raptured). So most will reign with Christ a 1000 years, but you do understand that is temporal right? After the 1000 years this Earth goes away and all, Jews and Gentiles WILL LIVE IN HEAVEN.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎6‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 7:55 PM, wingnut- said:

 

Hello Marilyn,

I am not sure how you are coming to the conclusion that Christ is the tree of life in scripture.  He is often spoken of as the "bread of life", but the tree of life does not produce bread, it produces fruit (12 kinds).  To me, this is actually contradictory in regards to Jesus, and I will explain why with scripture.

 

Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

Following the original sin, Adam and Eve were removed from the garden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life, and also God put up a guard to the tree of life.  Jesus is not kept from us, we did not have to get by the cherubim and flaming sword to receive salvation.  Jesus also walked in the garden with Adam and Eve before the fall, and the tree was still there.

 

Revelation 22: 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

The tree of life produces 12 kinds of fruit on a monthly basis, so how does that equate to Jesus, does He only produce fruit on a monthly basis?  And what about the leaves of the tree for healing of the nations? 

Hi wingnut,

Somehow missed your posts, sorry. Now remember Jesus said He was `the way the truth and the life.` Also in John He says - `For as the Father has life in Himself so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself.` (John 5: 26)

The `Tree of Life,` is a symbolic picture of the Lord giving of His life to others.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎6‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 8:15 PM, wingnut- said:

 

Well, for starters the passage of scripture you quoted.

Revelation 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

The Bride represents believers, the two are connected right here as one.  The other evidence is in regards to the 7 churches, and all the promises to the overcomers/ conquerors/ believers directly associated with attributes of the New Jerusalem.  Here are some additional passages that I had not posted previously, beginning with the great multitude.

Revelation 7:14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Those who have washed their robes have the right to the tree, and to enter the city.  This includes the great multitude who washed their robes.  Also it is important to note they may enter the city by the gates, the 12 gates represent the 12 tribes of Israel, there is no other way into the city.

Revelation 7:15 “Therefore they are before the throne of God,
    and serve him day and night in his temple;
    and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
    the sun shall not strike them,
    nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
    and he will guide them to springs of living water,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Revelation 22  Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

They are before the throne of God, and the throne of God and the Lamb are in the city.  God and the Lamb are the temple, and they are in the city which is where the great multitude serves them.  There is no sun so it cannot strike them, and the living water is in the city.  Everything promised to the great multitude, as well as the 7 churches, is in the city.  The Bride itself is connected to the city.

God bless

 

Hi again wingnut,

If we look at Hebrews 11, we see that God is talking about the OT saints who looked for the city, the New Jerusalem. It is for them and not for us as we will be in the third heaven with Christ.

Those who are invited to the city are the nations of the earth. (Rev. 21: 24 - 27) The live on earth but can visit the New Jerusalem.

Then as to the great multitude in the trib, who die from heat, hunger and thirst, (Rev. 7: 16) they will be those nations on the earth, (as above). Symbolically they carry palm branches which signify making of tabernacles. This points to the time when the `Tabernacle` of God, the New Jerusalem comes down near the earth, bringing blessing and God`s rulership.

BTW Israel is always referred to as the wife, the bride. The Body of Christ is never called that.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎6‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 8:32 PM, wingnut- said:

Hello Marilyn,

The Lord does not dwell with me at the present time, He dwells within me, big difference.  There would be no reason for God to announce He is going to dwell with us in the future if nothing were different about it than the present.  The Lord won't be following anyone around, the exact opposite is said.

Revelation 14: 4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,

If I understand your position correctly, can you explain how the 144,000 can follow Jesus wherever He goes if they are on earth and He is in the third heavens?  Or if your position is that Jesus is on earth, then can you explain how the Bride can forever be with the Lord if they are in the third heaven? 

God bless

Hi wingnut,

We `follow` the Lord spiritually, obeying, and so do they. There will not be billions of people like a comet tail following the Lord around the universe etc, if you can get my drift.

Note the `bride` (as per city) is just a symbol for the unifying of God`s purposes, in the third heaven with the lower heavens. The key is - unity, harmony, connecting.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎6‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 9:03 PM, wingnut- said:

Hello Marilyn,

I don't see that passage saying what you are taking it to say.  It is speaking of Jesus being far above all, and though His throne is presently located above, it is clearly not staying there in the age that is to come.  In Ephesians 1 Paul writes multiple times about our inheritance, and our inheritance are all things associated with the New Jerusalem.  We are told several times in Revelation that both God and Jesus are in the city, and that the throne is in the city.  Take this verse from Ephesians 1 for example, and what it says.

 

Hi wingnut,

When Christ is given visible rulership in the third heaven, then that is the seat of power and authority, under God the Father. It is from there that all other rulerships have their authority and power. Authority and power does not work from the bottom up, but from the highest position and down from there. It will not be moved as then you would have a lesser authority and power.

When it says that God the Father and Jesus are in the city, it is referring to their authority, their power, their blessing.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎7‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 7:26 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Yes, human beings have put "space junk" out there, but by and large, that is restricted to our LOCAL area, namely the planetary ecliptic of our solar system. We have put NOTHING beyond the reach of our own sun ... yet.

As far as haSatan is concerned, that is ALL speculation and the interpretation of questionable passages of Scripture. If you're going to give "angels" ("messengers") such an interpretation, remember Hebrews.

Hebrews 1:13-14
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
KJV

Hi Retro,

`For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual host of wickedness in the heavenly places.` (Eph. 6: 12)

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.` (Col. 1: 16)

`..according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now sons in the sons of disobedience.` (Eph. 2: 2)

Marilyn.