Retrobyter

How do the believers in Christ differ from Israel?

150 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Marilyn.

This is interesting stuff, but I must ask: Why THIS order for the children of Israel? I'm surprised at the order you've chosen because it is neither in the order of their births nor is it in the marching order of the tribes mentioned in Numbers 10. What determined the order to which you've assigned the interpretation of the meaning of their names?

Hi Retro,

That is a very good question. Now I haven`t just plucked the order out of the air, (pun intended) but have followed what the Lord says in His word. These are my references as I wrote on the bottom of my post.

(The Stones. Ex. 28: 17 – 21,

the tribes. Num. 10: 14 – 27,

the meanings. Gen. 29: 32,  30: 1 – 24,  35: 18     Rev. 21: 19 & 20 )

The stones on the breastplate of the High Priest are in a certain order. (Ex. 28: 17 - 21)

Match these with the tribes  in Num. 10: 14 - 27. (So now we have the gem stone with the tribe - eg sardius for Judah.)

Then, find out the meaning of the names  next to them, eg. sardius for Judah meaning - to hold out the hand, power.

Finally you then place the `gem stone with the tribe and meaning` in the order of the gem stones in the foundations of the walls of the city. (Rev. 21: 19 & 20) (Note the sardius stone comes 6th in the order and that is where I placed it.

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

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12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

That is a very good question. Now I haven`t just plucked the order out of the air, (pun intended) but have followed what the Lord says in His word. These are my references as I wrote on the bottom of my post.

(The Stones. Ex. 28: 17 – 21,

the tribes. Num. 10: 14 – 27, these are MARCHING order!

the meanings. Gen. 29: 32,  30: 1 – 24,  35: 18     Rev. 21: 19 & 20 )

The stones on the breastplate of the High Priest are in a certain order. (Ex. 28: 17 - 21) these are in order by BIRTH!

Match these with the tribes  in Num. 10: 14 - 27. (So now we have the gem stone with the tribe - eg sardius for Judah.)

Then, find out the meaning of the names  next to them, eg. sardius for Judah meaning - to hold out the hand, power.

Finally you then place the `gem stone with the tribe and meaning` in the order of the gem stones in the foundations of the walls of the city. (Rev. 21: 19 & 20) (Note the sardius stone comes 6th in the order and that is where I placed it. the NAMES OF THE APOSTLES are the "order" here!

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

Shalom, Marilyn.

Okay, but what made you decide on MARCHING order for the order of the gemstones on the breastplate, rather than birth order? I seem to remember...

Exodus 28:9-12
9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:
10 Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.
11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.
12 And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the Lord upon his two shoulders for a memorial.
KJV

There are other orders, as well. The order of the gates in the Millennial Jerusalem are found in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 48:31-34
31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.
32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.
33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.
34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.
KJV

This is a CLOCKWISE order! (And, I think this will be the order of the gates in the New Jerusalem.)

Since it is not said, what determines the order of the gems on the breastplate?

Edited by Retrobyter
to fix a spelling (word choice) error
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Shalom, again, Marilyn.

I should also add that the birth order is this:

Leah:
1. Reuben, Gen. 29:32 (X)
2. Simeon, Gen. 29:33 (X)
3. Levi, Gen. 29:34 (X)
4. Judah, Gen. 29:35 (birthright of Jacob's/Israel's portion)

Bilhah:
1. Dan, Gen. 30:6
2. Naphtali, Gen. 30:8

Zilpah:
1. Gad, Gen. 30:11
2. Asher, Gen. 30:13

Leah:
5. Issachar, Gen. 30:18
6. Zebulun, Gen. 30:20
7. Dinah, Gen. 30:21 (daughter)

Rachel:
1. Joseph, Gen. 30:24
2. Benjamin, Gen. 35:18
1.a. Manasseh, Gen. 41:51 (X)
1.b. Ephraim, Gen. 41:52 (birthright of Joseph's portion)

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11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Okay, but what made you decide on MARCHING order for the order of the gemstones on the breastplate, rather than birth order?

Since it is not said, what determines the order of the gems on the breastplate?

Hi Retro,

I see you have been doing some checking up. That`s good. here is your first Q.

Okay, but what made you decide on MARCHING order for the order of the gemstones on the breastplate, rather than birth order?

Here is what God`s word says -

`Then you shall take two onyx stones and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel: six of their names on one stone, and the remaining six names on the other stone, according to their BIRTH. .....And you shall put the two stones on the shoulders of the ephod as memorial stones for the sons of Israel.` (Ex. 28: 9 & 10 & 12)

`You shall make the breastplate of judgment......And you shall put settings of stones in it, four rows of stones:.....And the stones shall have the names of the sons of Israel,.....according to the twelve tribes.` (Ex. 28: 15 - 21)

The shoulder two stones were representing government, (the government shall be upon His shoulders) while the breastplate 12 gemstones represented judgment, (type of the Lord Jesus Christ in His Deity, Divinity, Humanity, Mediatorialship and Righteousness.)

Marilyn.

 

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12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, again, Marilyn.

I should also add that the birth order is this:

Leah:
1. Reuben, Gen. 29:32 (X)
2. Simeon, Gen. 29:33 (X)
3. Levi, Gen. 29:34 (X)
4. Judah, Gen. 29:35 (birthright of Jacob's/Israel's portion)

Bilhah:
1. Dan, Gen. 30:6
2. Naphtali, Gen. 30:8

Zilpah:
1. Gad, Gen. 30:11
2. Asher, Gen. 30:13

Leah:
5. Issachar, Gen. 30:18
6. Zebulun, Gen. 30:20
7. Dinah, Gen. 30:21 (daughter)

Rachel:
1. Joseph, Gen. 30:24
2. Benjamin, Gen. 35:18
1.a. Manasseh, Gen. 41:51 (X)
1.b. Ephraim, Gen. 41:52 (birthright of Joseph's portion)

Thank you Retro,

And the birth order as scripture says is on the two shoulder stones. (Ex. 28: 9 & 10)

Marilyn.

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12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

There are other orders, as well. The order of the gates in the Millennial Jerusalem are found in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 48:31-34
31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.
32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.
33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.
34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.
KJV

This is a CLOCKWISE order! (And, I think this will be the order of the gates in the New Jerusalem.)

 

Hi Retro,

Interesting find, the 12 gates in the temple in the Millennium. A few differences though, with the new Jerusalem.

1. No temple in the New Jerusalem.

2. The tribes of Joseph and Dan are not mentioned in the New Jerusalem, however Joseph`s sons are - Manasseh and Ephraim.

3. Also the order of the gates are different. In the millennium the north gate is first, while in the New Jerusalem the East gate is first.

Marilyn.

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2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

Interesting find, the 12 gates in the temple in the Millennium. A few differences though, with the new Jerusalem.

1. No temple in the New Jerusalem.

2. The tribes of Joseph and Dan are not mentioned in the New Jerusalem, however Joseph`s sons are - Manasseh and Ephraim.

3. Also the order of the gates are different. In the millennium the north gate is first, while in the New Jerusalem the East gate is first.

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Actually, these gates in Ezekiel are the gates of the CITY, not the Temple. This is a much smaller city, however, because it is only 4500 x 4500 "measures" ("reeds"). This is the "City of the Prince." The Temple will be SEPARATE from the City.

Ezekiel 48:15-22
15 And the five thousand, that are left in the breadth over against the five and twenty thousand, shall be a profane place for the city, for dwelling, and for suburbs: and the city shall be in the midst thereof.
16 And these shall be the measures thereof; the north side four thousand and five hundred, and the south side four thousand and five hundred, and on the east side four thousand and five hundred, and the west side four thousand and five hundred.
17 And the suburbs of the city shall be toward the north two hundred and fifty, and toward the south two hundred and fifty, and toward the east two hundred and fifty, and toward the west two hundred and fifty.
18 And the residue in length over against the oblation of the holy portion shall be ten thousand eastward, and ten thousand westward: and it shall be over against the oblation of the holy portion; and the increase thereof shall be for food unto them that serve the city.
19 And they that serve the city shall serve it out of all the tribes of Israel.
20 All the oblation shall be five and twenty thousand by five and twenty thousand: ye shall offer the holy oblation foursquare, with the possession of the city.
21 And the residue shall be for the prince, on the one side and on the other of the holy oblation, and of the possession of the city, over against the five and twenty thousand of the oblation toward the east border, and westward over against the five and twenty thousand toward the west border, over against the portions for the prince: and it shall be the holy oblation; and the sanctuary of the house shall be in the midst thereof.
22 Moreover from the possession of the Levites, and from the possession of the city, being in the midst of that which is the prince's, between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin, shall be for the prince.
KJV

oblation.jpg

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2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

...

2. The tribes of Joseph and Dan are not mentioned in the New Jerusalem, however Joseph`s sons are - Manasseh and Ephraim.

3. Also the order of the gates are different. In the millennium the north gate is first, while in the New Jerusalem the East gate is first.

Marilyn.

Looking at point 3 first, the order of the SIDES makes little difference regarding the order of the GATES. On a Jewish map (if one were available in Ezekiel's day), they would put East on the TOP of the map, north would be on the left side, south on the right side, and west on the bottom. The "FORMER sea" was the Dead Sea and the "HINDER sea" was the Mediterranean Sea. The order of things would be "right to left" and "top to bottom" because of the way they wrote.

Zechariah 14:8
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
KJV

Now, regarding the tribes, the tribe of Efrayim IS the tribe of Yosef, since Efrayim had the birthright of Yosef!

However, you're talking about Revelation 7, the sealing of the 12 tribes. Revelation 21 doesn't mention the individual names of the tribes or the sons of Israel. All it says is...

Revelation 21:10-13
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
KJV

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2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Hi Retro,

This is a very interesting conversation we are having. I am really appreciating it. Also thank you for the correction. I said gates to the temple, when as you showed the gates are to the city. Now if we look at the 12 gates and the meaning of the tribe names in relation to the Lord we see this difference -

The Millennium

Joseph - He will add, increase.

Benjamin - at the right hand.

Dan - Judge

`Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom to order it and establish it with judgment and justice.` (Isa. 9: 7)

The Lord is at the Father`s right hand ruling over the throne of David. The increase of His government comes as more people are born and come into the kingdom. He will also be judging the nations in the millennium.

The New Jerusalem

Ephraim - doubly fruitful.

Benjamin - at the right hand.

Manasseh - forgiveness.

`He showed me a pure river of the water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. And in the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore 12 fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree were for the health of the nations. And there shall be no more curse.` (Rev. 22: 1 - 3)

The Lord is at the Father`s right hand bringing forgiveness and fruitfulness to all.

Marilyn.

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I may have already replied to this thread (topic).  I tend to shy away from such a deep subject because it's not as simple as many presume, and they lack no insolence in ripping the mere messenger to bits rather than face and consider the scriptures revealed.

__________________________________________________

Israel is both a physical entity and a spiritual entity. 

True Christianity is a spiritual entity.

That's the simplest way to put it.

_____________________________

Israel (physical entity and spiritual entity):

Romans 9:6 (AV)
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 2:28–29 (AV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Deuteronomy 10:16 (AV)
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

_________________________________________________________________________________

There is no doubt or lack of scriptures I could quote (from even the lips of the Lord Jesus himself)

distinguishing physical Gentiles from physical Jews who are the chosen / elect / God's people in the physical. 

I want that to be perfectly clear I am not saying otherwise.  Whether believing or unbelieving the physical Jews

are God's people on Earth.

__________________________________________________________________________________

Believers in the Jewish Messiah Jesus are God's people, chosen, elect of Heaven.

Both physical Jew and physical Gentile who believe in Jesus.

__________________________________________________________________________________

Galatians 3:24–28 (AV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

This is obviously referring to spirituality for there are physical Jews and Gentiles and physical males and females in the Church.

___________________________________________________________________________________

Okay?

___________________________________________________________________________________

Ephesians 2 (AV)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:16 (AV)
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Does being a Christian make a Gentile born believer a physical Jew? Not in the least!

Now either the Church is equated (by the scriptures) with Spirit Israel, or Israel is ONLY physical.

And everyone will be at a loss to explain Romans 9:6 and Romans 2:28-29.

I do not believe our Jewish born brothers and sisters are willing to relegate All Israel to all physical Israel only.

Further, there is an antisemitic element among Gentile born believers who (whether they realize it or not) buy into at least a partial replacement theology when they reject the fact that the Church is Spirit Israel (typically from their own bias or dislikes). 

Jewish pride and Gentile prejudice...

There's more, but I am certain I have sufficiently worked up the ire and hate of those who are about to pummel me with hundred pound hail stones.

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